ROBERT A. PERKINS: THE IMMIGRATION PROFESSOR

Let me ask you a few questions - and be honest. 

How much do you REALLY know about US Immigration Policy?  

Do you think you have enough of an education to have a solid opinion on the matter?  

Do you think everything you hear about the current state of immigration in the United States is accurately portrayed in the media and by politicians?  

Need more information? Luckily we have Immigration Attorney Robert Perkins with us for this episode.  

Known by many as "The Immigration Professor",  for over 35 years Mr. Perkins  has successfully represented thousands of individuals and companies from all over the world in their immigration cases. He joins us to shed some light on the origins of the current U.S. immigration policies and offer his unique and experienced perspective on  perhaps why we are unable to come together as a nation  on such a crucial issue.

Obviously, one podcast is too short a time to unpack all of the complexities here, but it's a good beginning towards understanding how we got to where we are. 

Oh, and as with every episode,  I've done my best to present this conversation as free from political ideology as possible and offer it as an unbiased education.  Just know that was my intention, and pay attention to any reaction you may have.  You might learn something about yourself, too.

Let's get into it.

Resources for Robert A. Perkins - The Immigration Professor

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Disclaimer: The views of the guest do not necessarily represent the views of the host or this platform and should  not be construed as an endorsement for any specific point of view. This conversation is intended solely for educational and entertainment purposes and not as legal advice or opinion.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Christopher. Before we jump into this episode, I wanted to let you know a little bit about our guest. I met Robert Perkins about a year ago through a mutual friend when I was starting the idea for this podcast. And he was one of the first episodes I recorded. He is an immigration attorney since 1989. He's actually helping my husband and I right now with our marriage and his marriage-based green card. He is so kind and thoughtful and well-educated. Everybody has a purpose, I believe. And it is clear that this man is living in his purpose and helping a lot of people while doing so. I'll put some more information about him in the liner notes. And please know that we tried to do our best. I tried to do my best to come from a non-politicized point of view. This is meant for education. And hopefully, like me, you will learn something that you didn't know before, and that can continue the conversation in a healthy way. So without further ado, enjoy the episode. This is Uncided. Okay, here we go. Robert Perkins. I am so excited to talk to you. Uh, we were just talking a second before we started recording, and I already had a thousand questions that I wanted to ask you. But first of all, hello.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Hi, nice to nice to see you, and thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Oh, well, it's my honor to talk to you. I've done what research I could do online without uh doing too much because one of the things that I I want these conversations to be is very natural.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

I've been doing immigration cases since 1990 and full-time solely immigration cases since 1993. So over 30 years of experience in the field. So it's been a it's been a great journey for me. And I'm delighted to be doing something that I'd love to do, and you know, happy to shed light on anything that I can for your listeners.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Yeah, I appreciate that. And you kind of just answered my first question, which is, or at least a little bit, but I'll ask you, why? Why, other than the importance, it's the obvious importance, why were you compelled to go into immigration law?

SPEAKER_02 1:55

You know, it's it found me. Some people, you know, people ask, oh, you know, how did how did this happen? I I started out, you know, in 1989 as a lawyer, and I worked for a very large firm. In fact, the largest in the world is now Denton's. It used to be Sun and Shine, Nathan Rosenthal. It merged and I was a commercial litigator, and I liked the work. Um, you know, it got me to be very good at how to prove facts, you know, and document things. And, you know, I enjoyed being a litigator, but I didn't love it. What I really loved was uh the firm, Sun and Shine Now Dentons. They they have a great pro bono program, really encouraging young lawyers to get experience, you know, helping people. And one of my colleagues was doing these asylum cases. And I said, that sounds kind of interesting. And um I started to do that. And to me, it wasn't work. It was just so fascinating. You know, my first case was a guy from El Salvador just listening to how he was 15 and rounded up in the back of a van, you know, to serve the government. And guerrillas were threatening him and his family and things like that. And, you know, it was just riveting to me. And I would be late at night working uh in the Sears Tower. At that time it was the Sears Tower in Chicago, now it's the Willis Tower, you know, just learning about what was going on in these other countries. And it was just not work to me anymore. And in a way, it was kind of fascinating because I had always been one of those guys that hung out with the international students, both in college and law school, and always really interested in other cultures and how people looked at things from a different point of view than we did here. And so it in a way, it was a natural fit. Got out of law school thinking I'd do labor law. And there is a labor law huge component in immigration law, which also very interesting, but there wasn't enough work at Sun and Shine Denton's at the time. And so I ended up doing litigation and anyway, just falling into immigration law kind of slowly but surely.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

I absolutely believe, as woo-woo as this may sound, whatever your belief system is, I believe we have a purpose. And I and I believe the greatest part of that purpose, which has been uh really sent in the wrong direction, I think, by what we value today as far as material things are concerned. But I think the the real purpose that we have is to help other people in some capacity, um, to at least be of service in some way. And so when I think of the work that you do, uh, and I think of, you know, I have a partner who is Lebanese uh and we're queer. And when I came to Canada to work five years ago, this was before I had met him, but when I came to Canada to work, I really realized, like for the first time at 44 years old, what it meant to be a white male American from Oklahoma. Yeah. And and and I can't say that I even realized it fully. It's just like I touched the tip of the iceberg because Vancouver, where I went, is a very international city, as you know. And and a lot of people who are first generation to Vancouver. And I just I I learned so much about the, you know, we hear this word privilege a lot. I I would love to hear your take on that because it became very real to me for the first time and the responsibility that goes with it.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

It's easy to have a take on it given today's current events. And it's interesting because, you know, we complain, you know, people complain, oh, you know, there's there's flooding, or, you know, I live in Los Angeles and there's been a lot of rain or whatever. And then you think about what is happening in other countries, you know, Syria, this horrible civil war where you have all these factions against each other. You've got Ukraine now with the Russians invading, you know, maybe some human rights violations there. Horrible things to people who are horrible things that are happening. And the Russians themselves being used as basically cannon fodder, right? And then you think of things going on in Gaza, uh, you know, and you see the pictures in the media. I mean, the problems that we have are so light, you know, first world kind of problems in comparison with these other countries and what's going on right in front of us right now, very starkly. And other places, Haiti is another one that, you know, some things are going on there. So it's very hard for us to have that kind of perspective that these folks have and understand. You know, uh, I was talking about this with my girlfriend a little bit earlier. Her grandmother, who just passed at age 100, was living in Italy during the time of Mussolini. And, you know, there was fighting right on her soil, something that hasn't happened here since the Civil War, really. You know, active fighting between forces. But she was raped by, you know, by an army person. Those are the horrible things that are happening in other places. And people that are coming from those places or other places where there's violence and unrest, the perspective is just so, so very different from the one we have. One of the one of the interesting things I find is people who may have views against immigration at times, you know, one of the questions I ask them, well, how many times have you gone into that mythical bar and you know, talk to someone who may have come here from El Salvador or from Ukraine or from whatever? You know, it's interesting, and you usually the answer is they they have it. Right. I I think once you you start to do that, you have a different perspective. I I don't think it's going to be uniformly the same perspective as everybody else that has had those discussions. I think there's definite diversity of opinion even there. But I think it's it's important to be able to relate to people as a fellow human human being.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Absolutely. You know, coming from Oklahoma, uh, I've had several different I then went to Chicago for university, then I came to Los Angeles, and then I came to Canada. So I've had several different kinds of like steps into broadening my horizons. I mean, I had people in my family, I love them, I love them all, but who never left the state or who certainly never left the country. And I found that even in my own otherness, being queer, knowing that I was different as I would still come up against my own, I don't want to say, well, prejudice. That's the only way to put it, you know, my own understanding, what I had been raised with. And I think that, you know, I had another conversation recently with a fascinating gentleman. We were talking about the fact that, you know, you say if you could just go into this mythical bar and have that conversation with somebody who's come from elsewhere. Um, it it can be very hard to change your perception of anything when you're in a vacuum of your own community, your own conditioning. And so you do have to find a way to break out of that. I think that's the thing that's so challenging. It must be very challenging for you is that there is a media war constantly and a fight for people's eyes based on fear-mongering. And immigration is often at the middle of that.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

It's it's very, very difficult. You you know, you run into people with all levels of knowledge, education, and of course, exposure to different media. And there's a simplification of issues too that goes on, you know, with immigration. You hear the term open border. That's not really what the debate is. In fact, what is the debate? The debate is we have a system of asylum. That system, the the root of it was after World War II. The Jews, you know, there were a boatload of Jews. This, I think it was the St. Louis was the ship who was denied uh landing by President Roosevelt at the time and was turned back. And 70% or some high percentage of Jews perished in the Holocaust. And after World War II, this system of asylum came into effect among many, over a hundred and you know, 150 countries of the world said, hey, there has to be a way that people that are seeking refuge that are being persecuted can be protected.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

So can I just stop you just for one second? Because I think this you're educating me, and I think you'll educate people who are listening. So are you saying that our modern day immigration laws and policies were birthed during that post-World War II era?

SPEAKER_02 10:11

They pretty much were. Actually, now I'm coming to the realization, but the asylum stuff was directly related to the Holocaust and the refugee system.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Not only Jews, but also homosexuals, gypsies, you know, political dissidents, things like that, were persecuted by the Naz and more. I'm I, you know, I'm sure I'm missing people from the list. And our modern system of legal immigration putting aside asylum was the 1952, I believe, immigration act.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

So when you when you say putting aside asylum, you mean giving other reasons other than uh political asylum or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Basically, um US immigration, legal immigration system is very difficult. And in fact, if you are, let's say, somebody in Ecuador, I'm just kind of making this up that, you know, a hardworking guy that wants to immigrate to the United States, and you're you've got a lot of pizzazz, and you, you know, it's very difficult to immigrate for 99% of the people to legally immigrate. Sure. So people immigrate, there's five kind of general ways. And I'm grossly overgeneralizing this, but family-based immigration, if you have a petitioner who has status as a green card holder or a citizen of the US, like a close family member, like a spouse, parent, or child, that's one way to immigrate, family petition. Okay. The other way is through employment. If you have an employer who's willing to sponsor you and show that they can't find anybody that can meet the minimum requirements of the job, they have to go through a uh a process of a few, it takes a few years and costs a lot of money, like 10 grand. Okay. You know, through that, they can sponsor you. If you are an investor and you have, you know, a minimum for a temporary investment visa of let's say 100,000 for a green card over 800,000.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

So you can buy one or you have to invest in a company, or you have to invest and create jobs. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

That's basically the story. Right. Uh, you can immigrate. Asylum is kind of my fourth basis. And my fifth, there's the lottery every year for 50,000 green cards. There's some other green card programs, for example, for people who uh served in the US military or other kinds of things overseas, so that you know, that apply to almost nobody.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

But um, you know, but basically those are the five big buckets.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Those are the big buckets. And if you're that father in Ecuador who just wants to create a better life, and you don't know anybody here, and you don't have any family here, and you don't have a lot of money, which pretty much most people in that vote, you can't do it legally. And even the ones that can't do it legally, you know, the the system itself has ridiculous weights. Let me give you a couple of examples. If you're my brother and I'm a citizen and you're in Canada and I file for you to immigrate, there is a category for siblings. It's a you know, 15, 20 year weight.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Oh wow, really?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah. For that kind of immigration, or even from a father to a son who's over 21. If I was your father and a citizen, it's a seven, seven plus years in most places. Um, that's one example. Uh, let me give you another one. Uh, as you is you and other people may be aware, there's there's a lot of programmers and software people from India, some from China that tend to come here. So for that person to get permanent residence status or a green card, it's the same thing. Um, there's an 11-year wait.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

And they have to wait outside the country.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

No, they can be inside if they're on a temporary visa, which you need to win a lottery to get. Uh, you know, the chances are maybe 15-20 percent of winning every year. Employer has to enter you in a lottery and um to get the temporary visa. Uh, but still, if you're here working, you don't know if you're gonna stay.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Right. So that's a lot of uncertainty.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

And you've got this 11-year wait while the employer is sponsoring you. So that's stressful. It's really stressful.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah, we need because that's a basic human need to know that you have somewhere to plant yourself.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

One of the interesting things in my practice, and it's a mixed thing, is the nice thing is seeing the difference in the demeanor of somebody and everything else before. You know, that kind of stress is always in the background to after they get their permanent status, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Well, that's something that I have witnessed. My partner, he was born in Liberia, but you can't have citizenship in Liberia as a I believe as a person who is not from Liberia. He explained it to me using different words. But he so he doesn't fully have a citizenship there, so he's a Lebanese citizen because he's Lebanese. Oh wow, okay. And then he has his PR in Canada. But he has such stress. And I didn't understand it at first. It's so deeply inbred in his beingness that even after he got his PR, he still has carries this fear with him. Now it's it's drastically different. He was, I he was elated to cross the border the first time as a PR, feeling like he had a home. But I don't think that people understand who are sitting pretty where they are, what it's like to be displaced. Even someplace that you are, that you may be safe, but you're displaced. You're not owned, it's not your home.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yeah, you can't stay. You don't have a place where you feel permanently safe and you feel like there's some chance you might get kicked out. And um, you know, I deal with that fear on a day-to-day basis. I mean, one of my personal, I mean, I've suffered from anxiety in my life. Me too. A lot of just I just have it. You know, I I I've worked a lot on it personally with a lot of success, still have some of it. But my personal goal as an immigration lawyer is to take that level of anxiety that may be here and try. I mean, I can't eliminate it, but I I can I think through information, through really a lot of positivity, when it's of course warranted, I I can really reduce it a lot. And I this is my sort of own personal goal as an immigration.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

I love to hear that. I mean, I I'm not surprised to hear that, just picking up on your energy, sure, honestly, and you're open, you have a you have an open heart. And I also appreciate you being open about anxiety because it uh it affects so many of us, but it is a different level of anxiety. So I guess my question is uh, first of all, this is a question that came up for me a few seconds ago. So let's take it out of the United States for now. Say that gentleman from Ecuador uh who wants to go provide a better life for his family. I believe he's in Ecuador in this hypothetical situation. Are there many other countries in the world he could go to that would provide him a similar opportunity and easily get into or more easily?

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Um, yeah. I mean, I, you know, sure. Other countries are not so rigid in terms of, you know, one lane is this way, the other lane is that way. You know, you can try two different methods of immigration for the US. Let me clarify that at the same time, but they're very independent of each other. Other countries like Canada, uh, Australia have a point system. It's a lot more sane. They look at the whole person. One of my uh employees is in Brazil, and he's actually immigrating to Canada. So he gets a certain amount of points if he learns French. So he's learning French. Uh, he gets a certain amount of points by having a certain amount of money in the bank.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

That's right. I've gone through this process myself.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Yeah, sure. He gets a certain amount of points if I send a recommendation and work validation letter for him, and he documents his education, work experience. So it really looks at the whole person. What's that person's ties to the country? If that person has skills, all of it can be put into the pot. Let's just say.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Let me tell you why I ask. And and I and I appreciate that perspective. I've gone through the PR process in Canada. I think I've it's been almost four years now that I've been, I went through as an as a I couldn't get those points because I'm too old. So I had to go another route. Um, not enough working years left. But uh, I think the the reason that I ask is because I wonder, you know, how unique, and you've kind of answered this, how unique the United States is and what it is exactly that we think we're protecting. And is it actually accomplishing something when there are other countries who seem to be doing just fine? You know, a lot of countries have immigration issues.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

I mean, Germany led a lot, a lot of uh asylum seekers in. No, I want to, it was Merkel, and she took some political flack for it, but it ultimately worked out. I'm not sure that the fear is real. I do think that you you do have people, for example, that uh have concerns about strains on some public programs and infrastructure of a city, you know, for example, having places for people to sleep, food for people to eat. You do have these temporary strains that go on. Uh, the biggest one that I'm aware of, uh that I've been told, and I don't have a lot of detailed knowledge of, is has some legitimacy is the public schools. You have some flux there, and how do you deal with that? To me, the real issue is there's just a lack of um direction and lack of flexibility in public policy. Let me give you some examples of where I think we could be a lot better. So you have all these people coming and claiming asylum from south of the border, but there's no or very little sort of government policy or coordinated federal policy. And where we want them to be ideally and what we want them to be doing. And so you have these other sort of factors in society, for example, shortage of unskilled labor. I mean, we need caregivers who takes those jobs. Mostly it's a lot of undocumented people. We need a lot of nannies. We need a lot of, you know, restaurant workers and things like that. I mean, we have an aging population with the baby boomers retiring and getting older and things like that. Where do we need these people? You know, how much do we need them in a major city like Los Angeles, where they may go because there are a lot of people, let's say, from El Salvador already there. Maybe we don't need as many people there as we need in rural Ohio, where people are retiring, you know, and some of these smaller cities are having a hard time finding replacements and things like that. Maybe we need them to be there. Or in North Dakota, where you know, cities, mid-sized cities are springing up, or things like that. It in my view, why aren't we using this to our advantage?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I mean it makes perfect sense to me. I also have always wondered why, living 25 years in Los Angeles, I've always wondered why we're not. I mean, the people I know who immigrated, there, I I haven't really, I haven't, I've had many more problems with people who are native to America than I have immigrants. Generally, if they're there, they're there to work. So why would we not want them to be part of the system? So more taxes, more money for public services. Is there something I'm missing there?

SPEAKER_02 21:38

I mean, I think the answer is is hate.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

The answer is hate.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Did you say hate? Hate, fear, you know, fear of the other.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Fear of, you know, of them.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Uncided. Unsided.