TIFFANY COOPER

If ever there were an episode that encapsulates the reason I started this podcast, this would be the one.  I recently had the opportunity to sit down with my dear friend, Tiffany Cooper, and just talk - my favorite thing to do, as you know.  Tiffany and I could not have come from more varied backgrounds and yet we have managed to forge a bond over decades that has allowed me to challenge and grow myself perhaps more than any other person I have ever met. Every single time I speak with her I learn something new about myself and about how remaining curious about other people's life experiences can teach me to be a better human.  Most importantly, she has taught me how to move through difficult conversations with grace and to put aside my preconceived notions so that I might expand my understanding of what it means to walk in another's shoes.  She's a fierce talent, a whip-smart intellect and an exceptional conversationalist.  So happy to share this hour with her and now with you, and if you'd like to know more about Tiffany - which I highly suggest you do -  follow the link below.  Let's get into it. 

https://www.tiffanycooper.com/podcast.html

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

This is Unsided.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Unsided. Unsided.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Unsided. This is Christopher, and I have with me today a guest whom is one of the most magnificent, dynamic people I have ever met in my entire life. Her name is Tiffany Cooper. And she and I met, oh wow, 25. Tiffany, how many years ago was it?

SPEAKER_00 0:25

God, it had to be.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Was it it was 1997, right? 1996. No, wait, 1996.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Was it 96? Yes, 1996.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

1996.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

On a cruise ship.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

That's right, on a cruise ship. And um, you know, there are some people in life that you come across and you realize they are meant to be a teacher for you. I mean, I believe everybody is a teacher for us. I think you believe the same thing, Tiffany, but there are some people who come who cross our paths who are guides. And you are one of those people for me because you are one of the you we should tell everybody, by the way. You and I obviously, well, not obviously, but you are a woman. You present and choose to live your life as a woman, and you are a black woman.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yes, black woman, black power.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

And you are a straight woman.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

So we have a lot of things that are different. So a lot of opportunities for me to have a mirror held up to me and to learn. And I don't know, we can get into it, Tiffany. But when we first met, I was a pretty stubborn kid, wasn't I?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

I know. I remember you in rehearsal when we were rehearsing for um the show. We were rehearsing music, and you were eating an apple on your on our break, and you asked me for some reason, I think you had to go to the bathroom, be like, could you hold my apple after you've bitten into it? And I was like, I'm holding your apple. You hold your own dang apple. And from then on, we kind of felt each other's vibe. It was very playful, but yeah, um, I knew I was like, okay, I I I want to get to know this, Christopher. Uh, and then soon after that, fell in love and we became best friends.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

We literally best friends. We certainly did. Just for those of us who who don't know, which is most of you, we met doing a cruise ship um that ran from Alaska to Vancouver, Vancouver to Alaska and back and forth. And then we went back and we we ran through the Caribbean and through the Panama Canal and down the Pacific side of Mexico and Central America.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

It was a great when you when you look at the itinerary, it was a perfect itinerary.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

It was beautiful. And we only knew each other, we were only physically in the same place for about six months. Isn't that right? Which is a testament to the power of real divine connection. And that's something that you and I were talking about before we got onto the podcast. We were talking about God because we both have a deep faith uh in something greater than us, and the fact that sometimes, you know, you just have to take your hands, put them up and surrender and say, go ahead and what's that song, Jesus Take the Wheel? I'm don't I don't I don't love that song, but I like the sentiment of that song. You have to let the universe or the divine take over. And you and your friendship are evidence of that divinity because there is no reason on paper that you and I should have connected the way that we connected.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

I know, and and and been friends all these years. And there was times where we didn't speak, but when we did reconnect, it was like we had not been apart, right? That's how you know.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

I mean, that's God, right? And that it's not hard. The conversations that we have, we have hard conversations about what's going on in the world and what we do, but not with each other, right? Because we have this connection.

SPEAKER_04 3:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Um, and then again, you know, you realize there are some people that come in your life for a season, a reason, and a lifetime. And I feel like you are a lifetime friend. And I think that's through God. I I truly believe we're spiritual be people, and I believe that.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

I agree. And I feel the same way about you. And I also love that we can have those tough conversations and that I can ask you questions as a white queer man. My my experience is so different than yours, right? And yet we can find common ground. And I think that's that's one of the reasons, you know, a while ago, years ago, we would do these little conversations on Instagram live before either one of us had a podcast. And Tiffany, by the way, has do you have one podcast? Two podcasts?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, one podcast called Radically Curious Conversations, and I co-host that.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Okay. Well, I will make sure in the liner notes that I put information to that podcast because anybody who can listen to you would be very lucky to spend time with you.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

But thank you.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

You're welcome. But I think that so we started these conversations on Instagram live and then it stopped. You know, we were all in the middle of our lives, and we both knew we wanted to start podcasts. So this is the first time we've had a chance to sit down and record a podcast. And the thing that I think that people responded to the most then, and that I want to share now, is the fact that whatever, you know, respectful conversation is where we must be. And in the world right now, respectful conversation is lacking.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

And how to have that and still remain friends. So I think what was so great about our lives and what you're doing now is that, you know, it was called dig deep, get real. And the idea was that we were not going to have a hard conversation about our disagreements or agreements affect our friendship. And I think that how do you have that civil conversation without ending the friendship?

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Yeah. Well, you know that you know what just came to my mind right now because of course I immediately think of our political climate. And I don't want this to be a podcast episode about politics. That's not, that's not who we are. However, the idea of critical thinking and respectful conversation, here's why we can do it, Tiffany, because I have love for you and I value you and I value your happiness, and therefore I value your opinions even if I don't share them.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Mm-hmm. But that's a decision that we have to make, be very strategic and intentional in the beginning, right? Like I have to know coming in, I'm going to listen to your perspective and respect you, right? And that can be really hard because you know, do we want to be right? Or do we want to have connection? And I think connection and vulnerability is really key here and listening and respect. And I mean, we don't have it. And I feel like you and I, we're not perfect uh human beings, but we want to model what that can look like, right? Model what you know what, Christopher, I disagree with that respectfully. Um, and here's why. And not and know that you're still gonna love me at the end of the conversation, right? And vice versa.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

Yeah. Let's get into that. By the way, I just have to say that the we're not we're not posting a video of this, but you look like Linda Carter right now, but like the black version of Linda Carter.

SPEAKER_05 6:47

I don't know, like Wonder Woman.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Like you can take the turn in, like, do I look like first season or second season? Because you know, the first season she turned really slow in her cape. And the second second season, she turned fast.

SPEAKER_05 6:59

You look like it all, baby. You look like Hollywood.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

That's the best compliment. That is the best compliment. Black version of Linda Carter. Yes, I'll take that.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

I've never thought that before. It's just these beautiful glasses. Okay. I mean, and the fact that you're gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

So you're so sweet.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Tiffany, let's get into. I want to ask some questions about you and your life, and so that the the audience can know more about you. Where'd you grow up?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I grew up in Louisville, Kentucky. Um, it's we can call it bourbon, bourbon town. Um, we're a lot of the Kentucky Bourbon and Kentucky Derby. And um yeah, Louisville is a beautiful, beautiful place to grow up. You know, I didn't appreciate it when I was um when I lived there, you know, I didn't, I just was like, I kept, I kept thinking, God, you know, I really want to get out of, I want to get out of Kentucky. There's so much more I want to do. And to this day, everyone, you know, like my family will say, Well, why did you leave? You could have done, you know, you love performing, you love, you wanted to be an actress, you wanted to be a singer, dancer. Couldn't you do that in the state? And at the time, I was like, yes, I could, and maybe I will one day, but my dreams are bigger than the state that I live in. And so therefore I have to leave. If I had a smaller dream, and this there's no knock at anybody who stays at home, but for me, it was important to explore outside and reach outside and try to touch my dreams that was outside of my state, which was opportunity. So that's where I was raised. Um went to school, went to college. I went to a well, let me just back up. I went to an all-girls Catholic school, Mercy. Um, my parents really wanted me to have a really good private Catholic education. So I got that. And then, and and by the way, it's interesting at that time, I always wanted to go to youth performing art school. Like you see fame, that TV show, and my parents are like, no, just because you go to that school doesn't mean you're gonna be famous. Just because you go to that school doesn't mean you're gonna have all these great opportunities and that you're gonna be successful. At the time, I thought I didn't go to that type of school where you're immersed in singing and dancing and acting along with your academics. I'm not gonna have a shot outside of the state. So I had always envied people who could who went to that school, even though I was going to uh private or girls school. And then fast forward, I graduate and then I go to college at Murray State University, which is in Murray, Kentucky, closer to Nashville, actually. Um, four hours away from Louisville, two hours from Nashville. And uh they didn't have a music. I wanted to major in musical theater, but I got a scholarship for music and theater, and they would not let me take both. They're like, you have to choose. We don't have a musical theater program. You're going to have to piece together your degree. So I chose my theater scholarship and then took music classes on the side, which is insane. Today people get a BFA. What was I doing? Um, and I graduated, and then right after that, um, I had prayed to God that I would I prayed, do I go to LA and become a performing artist professional, or do I go to New York? And the Holy Spirit said, you know, go where your connections are, go start there. And so I was very strategic after graduation. I decided I was going to audition and audition for Hershey Park. I know that sounds crazy, but I was like, I want to audition for Hershey Park. It's the closest theme park to New York City. And there I will meet people who can help me maybe find an apartment who who can, you know, just connect me. And that's exactly what I did. And that gave me lifelong friends. I got an apartment uh with I found my roommate there at Hershey Park.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Before you go on, can we book that mark that thought for just a sec?

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Before we move further into that, there's so many things I want to get into. But the main question that I have for you is what was it like as a black woman, a black girl growing up in Louisville, Kentucky?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

You know, it was very mixed. At that time, there were very much um uh racial undertones, right? I remember being called the N-word at school and the teacher like in fifth grade and then all the way in eighth grade. And my mom like calling the principal and saying, Hey, you know, this boy in class can't call me that and X, Y, and Z. And then they, you know, they told the young boy, you can't do it, and we're gonna ground you. But I heard the word, I was like, I heard the word in, the n-word all the time in school, not outside of school, not outside of school.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

All the time.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, by the same, like the same three boys. Because my sister and I, we moved into a predominantly all white neighborhood. And so my parents wanted us to have a really good education. So the Catholic school we went to, there were only three black people. It was me, my sister.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Was this 80s?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yes. Okay, and it was my sister, me, and was another black guy. And I remember that the the other black boy that was in class, he didn't want to associate with me because I think he they didn't call him the N-word.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Three black people in your class or three black people in the whole school?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Whole school.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

And so I had to navigate okay, living in a white neighborhood, I could do that. I had friends on side of me and they were fine and cool, but it was this um at the time I didn't have the language. There was this um passive aggressive and racial undertones. Oh, well, you can't do that. Or, you know, black people don't go on vacations.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Wait, who would say that to you? Who would say that to you?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

There would be like a little girl in the class and be like, You go on vacation, you know, black people can't go on vacations. Uh, you know, just really just out of out of norm, right? And but my parents were so smart, and I came from a very solid community. My aunts and uncles, and they were like, you know, stand strong, be proud of who you are, um, be kind to other people. And if they call you out of your name, then you let me know, we'll make sure you're not gonna have to go to school. So I had support, and I had two of my best friends at school were very great. They were advocates for me, they advocated for me. Um, but I remember couldn't wait to get out of eighth grade. So, Catholic school, we went from kindergarten all the way to eighth grade. The same people.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Were the people who advocated for you? Were they white people?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yes. And they're one of them is my friend today.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

We've been friends since I think second grade. So let me let me let me just dig in here even further because I think it's gonna be helpful for a lot of people, particularly younger people who are listening, who, you know, we we live in a world now where this I don't like the term woke or social justice or any of that, but we live in a world where there is more conversation and expectation, at least within certain communities, that people will um keep their hearts and their minds open, right? But back then in the 80s, it was different. There was no conversation around that.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

And I want to add too that there was, you know, the those who were treating me like that is because they had lack of exposure to people of color, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Are you giving them an are you giving them an excuse or you're just not giving them excuse?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I understand, right? You fear what you don't understand, you fear what you what you're not exposed to. And so there was lack of insignificant exposure. They they were not exposed, so I was new. I was the new. Who's how who are they gonna be later?

SPEAKER_03 14:25

But But see, this is why this is why I think one of the reasons why you and I have have bonded the way that we have, because first of all, I shared a lot of that as a kid. I knew that I wanted to get out of Oklahoma City. I knew that I wanted to pursue a dream and uh a career in the arts. I knew all of that. And also as a queer kid, even though, you know, to look at me now as a white man, I walk through life with privilege, although I'm now married to a man and I've dealt with my share of bullying and I have dealt with that. I could ostensibly, if I wanted to, hide, I could pass. I could hide my minority, my sexuality. You couldn't because your skin is right out in front of you. But people knew that I was queer before I ever knew I was queer. So I received, I was teased and bullied a lot in school. But one thing you didn't develop and something I didn't develop was an anger about it. I never felt angry about it. And I've never known you to be an angry human about your place in the world. Can you tell me how you were able to live that experience and have those things said to you and about you and not come to anger?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

You know, it was it was God. I would have these daily conversations with God. God was my best friend. I'd be like, God, why are they acting like that? I would close my, I would come home and sometimes I would close my door and I would have a conversation with God. Like, God, you know, why are they acting like this? And what do you have something better for me? I know you you have something better for me. And I think if it wasn't support, it was God, number one, number two, if it wasn't the support of my parents who were incredible, um, and my extended family, my grandmother and my aunts and uncles and cousins, I don't know if I would, I could honestly say I'm not angry, right? I I don't know if I would be the person I am today and have the 360 view of all of that today, right? I'd still be harboring that as if it was yesterday, right? So I think surrounding yourself in some ways, no, I didn't have color privilege, but I had family support privilege, right? So some people might have color privilege. Hey, I'm white, I can walk her through the world, but might not have mom and daddy and uncle. So they they're struggling in other ways. And so I had that as my my foundation to get me through. And I knew that God has something different for me. So I held on to that. Couldn't, I didn't know what it was gonna be, what direction. So that I kept just putting in it, putting him first. And that was always the thing. Put God first and he will direct your path. And he has plans for you. I'm like, okay, well, if your plans for me, it's gotta be better than being called the in-word. It's gotta be better than uh what I'm dealing with. It's gotta be better. So I held on to that. The hope of that promise is what got me through.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

The hope of the promise.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

And I didn't have if I didn't have faith and support of the privilege of that. I don't know if you and I would be having the same conversation right now.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Yeah, I feel you, but you know what's fascinating to me, and we've talked about this before in different ways, is you have to be a receptacle, you have to be a vessel to open to that, because there are there are people who have family, who have things, who have that kind of community, who still harbor anger and hatred and disconnect. And I find that, you know, if we look at the the world as it is today, or and um America as it is today, without getting political per se, what I find interesting is that the people who seem to be the angriest are people who haven't really had to face any significant adversity in their life as far as their skin color or their sexuality. It's the people who were living in that space of I'm white, I'm straight, I'm middle class, I'm this, I deserve all the privilege. And as people like you and I begin to take a place in the world, it becomes frightening for them.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Well, how did you, but how did you, Christopher, I mean, coming from Oklahoma City, knowing that you had dreams outside of that that that place, and also being a queer man, how how did you what did you hold on to?

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Well, and I don't know. The first thing that came to my mind is I I didn't know what queer was, first of all. And I don't know if being a black person is is the same at all, but I remember that, like, you know, someone had to kind of tell me that I was at a disadvantage in the world. I had to learn that over time. I would assume that anybody who doesn't have white skin and lives in America has to learn through example that, oh, wait a minute, someone looks at me differently. So for me, and I talk with my kids about this a bit too, because my kids identify as queer as well, at least in this point in their evolution. And it's always seemed like a it's never affected me so incredibly deeply that I stopped my momentum or my growth because I always felt like it was a problem. I always felt like it was someone else's problem, not mine. Someone calling me queer, someone calling me fag, someone, someone, you know, trying to beat me up or bully me. I always saw that as their problem. And so I also had, I also had a deep faith. I wouldn't say that I had a family necessarily around me who was as maybe perhaps as supportive as yours, but I did have beautiful, wonderful people and f in my family. I had a lot of tumult uh in my life as well. But I, and this is what has fascinated me for so long, and why I asked you the question about why you didn't, why you aren't angry. Because it never crossed my mind to feel victimized as a whole. There are certainly times when I did, but it never crossed my mind. And I think it's what you said. I always knew that I wouldn't be born into this world unless there was a greater plan for me. And that plan was not for me to be to live in a place where I felt like I was less or to be in a circumstance where I felt like I was less. Now, you know me long enough and well enough to know that I had to go through in my 20s and 30s, I had to go through a lot to figure out how to actually embody the fullness of myself.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

How I'm curious to know because when I first met you, the one thing that struck me.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Wait, are you interviewing me or am I interviewing you?

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Oh yes, but I just I'm very curious. I've always been curious because you you're you're sure. I mean, obviously you're human, you go through ups and downs, but you're sure of yourself. Where has your confidence over your I say lifespan come from? Is it from the same place? When I met you.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

It's a God. Okay. It's God. And and my God and your God, I might, we might define them differently, but there is something outside of me that I feel um a commitment towards to be the best version of myself. So in the moments when I've been not the best version of myself, whether that's mentally or physically or otherwise, I get quiet and I listen. And I hear, pick yourself up, you have work to do. That's been my whole life. Pick yourself up, Christopher, you have work to do.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

I love that. I love that. I do think that there's like God puts us like right now. I feel like I'm in a quiet, like I want to be talking and I want to be jazz hands and everywhere I go, and hey everybody. But God has me in a in a in a quiet space, in a just in a holding space of continue to train and stay still and pour into others at this moment. This is the time where you've got to, it's gonna feel weird. Your ego is gonna be like, ouch, ouch. But this is the time I have you right now pouring into. Yeah, people pouring to you. Now it's time to shift, and it's time for you to use your spiritual gifts, which is encouraging others out of the blue, you know, one small act every single day, some person you know or you don't know, and really pour into other people, be other focused um in conversations. My my husband and I, we have a game where we go to gallas and events, he's like, Okay, the goal, other focused. How can you learn as much about you know, and so that takes a lot. And I it's still on par what we're talking about, because if we're listening to God, he has us at different times, different places, has us doing different things and listening. And so it can be hard when you're always in the driver's seat to just sit still and be in the oh, now it's my turn to be in class again and learn and train, even though you're like, I it's time to just be silent. That can be really hard.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

The the learning never stops.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

The learning never, if you're a lifelong learner, and I just was why I call myself a lifelong learner, um, the training never never stops. I I, you know, it it it even in the entertainment industry. So so I'm here in Yeah, tell us about what you're doing. And well, I'm in Minneapolis right now. So I'm a professional actress, singer, former dancer, kind of dance now, and I have a coaching business. I do executive public speaking coaching and um a certified life coach and a podcaster. I'm always chasing curiosity. So when someone says, What are you doing? I'm chasing curiosity.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

Ooh, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

And I'm always fascinated when people, when I run into people, what makes someone not want to be a lifelong learner?

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Well, let's start, let's let's be there for a second because that's a question that fascinates me too. And I think that is actually why we are where we are in our not just our communities in America, but in the world in many ways. There are certain groups of people who have decided that they have it figured out and they no longer need to learn, and everybody just needs to adjust to what they believe is the truth. And I it may sound like I'm talking about one side of the political aisle here, but you know me well enough, Tiffany, to know that I'm not, because it it takes, we both understand that there the truth is somewhere in the middle. The truth is not at the ends of the spectrum. And and let me maybe there's a different word other than truth, but there is the cohesiveness lies in the middle. The place where we can learn is in the crossover.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

And why do you think that right now we are as a nation and some in some capacities as a world so polarized between those who want to continue to learn about the other and those who have decided that they know everything there is to know about the other and there's no reason to learn or grow or connect?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Well, I think, you know, if you're gonna share, if I've already decided I believe what I believe, you have to be open to the possibility that there may be a different perspective. And I think some people are hard to do the deep dive thinking, right? So if I'm set on my ways and my family member says, I believe this, and I'm like, okay, well, let's just have a conversation. I'm I I can entertain that. First of all, I think you have to, I think there's there's about understanding, right? And the middle part, I whenever I run into people, we disagree, I go back to the the foundation of values because I feel like that is the middle point, the value system. Okay, so let's just take out what we believe for a minute. What do you value and let that be the guiding point to the conversation of why we disagree? Because then it forces us to listen to one another.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

But can you give me an example of what you mean between what's the difference between a value and a belief?

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Yeah, like uh it's something you you can believe, something that can be an idea. A value is something that you live by, right? It's something that you hold to that can is a deal breaker. Values are deal breakers. That's why we're so divided. The values are deal breakers. An idea you can you can manipulate an idea, you can get around an idea, you can outthink an idea, you can pull apart an idea, a value you can't either either my value is you don't lie, or if you value truth and you're lying, you can't get around that. You can't pull apart that. You either you're okay with that or you're not. If if, for example, telling like truth is a value, like uh, I I value honesty and you're lying to me. That might be a deal breaker for some people. For right, when you date people, we date people based on values too. So if the value of, oh, I don't care about, you know, honesty is not one of my values, and yet you're lying, you're like, well, it's it's important to me. And that could be a deal breaker or an idea you can discuss. So I think going to the idea, no one's going, no people can respect, even if I disagree with you politically or otherwise, we can still come to the table with values. I always start with values because it takes the temperature down.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

But what if you can't? What if what if you find values are not aligned at all?

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Then you can you you then that's what you ask. Oh, so why do you value that? Like I ran into someone, they're like, Well, I don't value equal opportunity, I don't value immigration, I don't, I don't, I don't value having immigrants coming. I don't value that. Why? Where did that come from? So then I go into deep dive. I go into the coaching mode. Why? I'm just so I go into 20 questions because I feel like that is the layer that you're most people don't have time for that. Like my husband's like, I have time. Like after five questions, I'm done. But I think the bigger question is when to stop? When to throw in the towel.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

That's important right there. So let's talk about that because what happens is if you we can ask with curiosity and open-heartedness and kindness, and then there is a point where either you stop or you move into anger and argument and defense because you're trying to change someone or challenge someone's values. And what you're saying, and what I I think what you're saying, tell me if I'm wrong, and what I find in my life as well, is that sometimes even the smallest amount of the of the gap can be bridged just by allowing someone to see that you're willing to listen to them. And maybe you don't you don't meet and have the same values, but at least in that moment you've shown each other some respect. And then there are some times where it can become so uncomfortable that you start to lose that connection, and that's when you have to stop.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

I think it's that you have to listen for the gaps. You know, when you're trying to come to the table, listen for the gaps, because that's usually the information that you need in a conversation. For example, somebody might really they're you're asking questions and you're talking, but there's a disconnect because you're finding that the way that they're asking questions is more about to harm than to understand. So sometimes people will ask questions to as a way in to harm versus understand. And then if you're able, if you're savvy enough to realize in that gap, oh so a lot of times when people ask me odd questions or I I I my instincts are to I always believe in my gut. Hmm, that I think they're asking to harm. They really want to go down this path of harming. I'll ask, what is your motivation for that questioning? I always ask motivation. What is your motivation behind that? And see, that's non-threatening. It's non-threatening. And now I put you on the spotlight to answer. Um, I'm very curious. So, what is your motivation behind that line of questioning? Just curious. And now you've got to break it down. Either you got your stuff together or you're you're reaching, and then that gives me enough time to know, I think we're done. Or thank you for your candor, or explain more, right? It gives me enough so I'm able to see what I can't see in just in a straight conversation.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Let me ask you a question. I I have um throughout my life, I have been blessed to have a lot of very dear black female friends. Um, you are number one on that list. I mean, um of all friends, you're at the very, very dip top. But for whatever, for whatever reason, I think maybe my queerness or whatever, being on the outside, like I found myself finding a lot in common with black women. Black men, not so much, but I've also had dear black male friends as well. But there, you know, I have always felt this um, I don't want to say pressure, drive is maybe the word, to educate, to help, like we were talking about, to share what I know, to share what I learned, to help people find that. But I have also been told by a lot of my black female friends and by watching and reading stories and experiences of black females, that there seems to be an immense amount of pressure put on black women to come forward with that kind of patience to save, to connect, to pick up the pieces for people, to mother people. You know, I remember when Kamala Harris was running someone called her Mamala, and there was a lot of backlash about a white woman calling her Mamala. Can you talk to me about what your experience has been as a black woman and having have you ever felt like you've needed to embody that role of educator and what and wisdom? Is that something that you felt has put upon you as a black woman?

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yes, I've had that. And years ago, I would have just like, oh, sure, I'll educate you. Now I'm a little bit more when I see myself being pulled in a direction of explaining or being um the token person that, hey, I will, I will get ahead of it. If I feel that I'm in that direction, I will say, um, sometimes I'll I'll take up the mantle. It's like, hey, let me give you my perspective. Or today I don't want to take up that mantle. I need to be paid for that today because it's a lot of work. Sometimes I need to be paid for picking up the mantle. Who's gonna who's gonna fit the bill? Who's signing the check? Because it's work, right? I didn't sign up for it. So sometimes some black women will, and I too will feel, hey, I didn't sign up for that. That's not, I don't want to be the person, you know, hey, I'll do it, you know. But I will stick up if there is someone advocating that uh every voice is important, that is not fair-minded, you know, don't speak for me, right? So what I will speak over and be like, hey, well, what what Tiffany is what she's trying to say, no, I'm right here. Did I give you that job to speak for me? No, okay. So I'll be okay and speak, right? So sometimes I'll step in that way, but I don't always pick up the mantle. Back then, I would have picked up the mantle, not realizing I don't need to do that, but kind of bullied into doing that, right? I don't walk around going, hey, now explain. No, sometimes you're bullied to do that.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Can you explain or why why do you think that we turn to black women to explain so much of our society and ourselves? Why do you think we do that?

SPEAKER_00 33:26

We had to be the caretakers during slave time, right? When the men were out in the women were in the fields, men were out in the fields, but the men were a threat, so they were beaten, right? And the women could do the the work. It's why you have Harriet Tubman, right? Harriet Tubman, you know, the underground. We're still doing that today. You know, a lot of uh uh funding has been taken away. But guess what? We're gonna be like Harriet Tubman, we're gonna go on the underground and we're still gonna do the work. The work is never gonna end, the work is never gonna stop. We just gotta go underground, right? So the women have always been keeping the families together, right? Going to church, always, just from our histories, right? Brought over as slaves. So that has been part of the women have been the center. So um I think that that's just something that's carried on, right? That legacy of uh of strength. And that's all we had, because back in the time, all we had was religion, nothing. All you had was religion. That was your community center, that was your hope. That was it. That's why the music and gospel music, it comes from something, right? All of that. So it's all you trace all of that back, it ex it it's it's no wonder that women are picking up the pieces. I guess the bigger question is why are we not looking to black men to pick up the piece? Why?

SPEAKER_03 34:48

I mean, I I wonder about this too. And I listened to a lot of black creators on social media, and some of them talk about this. And I'd love to know your perspective on that as well, because certainly there are wise, beautiful, wonderful black men who are who are spreading messages of curiosity and compassion, and obviously all of that. But you know, I think it it's that's a huge conversation. It's so systemic what has happened to black men in society. Oh, it is, it is society.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

And I think also, you know, they're a threat. Black men, black men are some men, yeah, are a threat. And also, why listen to something that's a threat? Right? You're gonna listen to something that is easy to digest.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Mean meaning that men are just more threatening in general, in in general, to all things, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Think about it just in general of like race. A white woman looks at a black man. What happens to that black man? He gets killed.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Right, right. Why? She just look well threatening. Why? What right? There's a lot of you know, it's just it's very complicated and nuanced, and we could unpack that, and it'll take probably a long time to unpack all of that.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

But yeah, uh but it but it but it is it is really interesting to me because you and I are first of all, I love you, and I love just talking to you and being in your presence, and I feel so honored, but it has nothing to do with the color of your skin, it has nothing to do with your gender, it has to do with your spirit and your soul. And I think I I have always operated that way. In fact, to my own detriment, if the if the goal is to be successful and rich, and listen, I'm blessed and I have all these things, but I've never been a person who could just give my time to people or organizations that were going to um that were going to elevate me outwardly. I was always drawn to people I knew who would see into my soul and who would make me a better human. And you are one of those people, and I would say that, you know, there aren't a lot of white men that I'm super close to because I don't feel like white, white straight men, I should say. I don't feel like people who are white and straight, and you know, don't hate me for saying this if you're listening, but it's just my experience. I don't feel like people who live in a system that is built for them necessarily have the kind of depth that I need to learn about myself.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

That's really heavy. That's heavy. I hope that I hope that's a chapter in your book, because that's really which makes me ask you this. When you were growing up, did you have any black friends? And what was your your relationship having black friends, but also how was that talked about in your home versus what you know? Obviously, you have your own thinking versus like how you were raised. Because I always I'm always curious about how people are raised in their homes and what are the conversations around race are they having or not having in their homes?

SPEAKER_03 37:48

I don't remember any explicit conversations about race. I can tell you that I was raised primarily by my mother, who is um, I would never ever consider her to be outwardly racist or judgmental. She's just she never taught me anything like that. She's also from South Dakota. She's from the North. We were, I was raised in Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

I love South Dakota, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

Yeah, I do too. I was raised in a socioeconomic area that was a melting pot, even in Oklahoma City. Vietnamese, my best friend growing up was Vietnamese. It didn't, it didn't matter to me. I didn't even think about it. It was not until I left Oklahoma that I became painfully aware of racism, which is odd because you would think that in Oklahoma I would be more aware of it. But I was I became aware of it when I went to Chicago. But growing up in growing up in Oklahoma, I I don't know about you in Louisville, but it always felt like that was just a stopping place for me. So anything that happened there, I didn't identify with wholly. You know, if I was around people that I didn't like, and certainly I was around racist people, and I began to see other racist people, and I and I heard prejudice in my family. I heard, you know, it it started as I grew older, I became more and more aware of it. But to answer your question, it wasn't something that was in my brain naturally. It I had to be made aware.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

It's like it's like that song in South Pacific, you have to be carefully taught. That's right. That's right. You do right, and that's such a powerful musical, which still resonates today. Very much that you have to be carefully taught. So I yeah, that's really fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

But by the way, that's that musical came out in the 50s, I think. The fact that they were writing a song, because that if you don't know South Pacific in that song, that song is all about racism and bigotry being learned. And what a powerful thing for them to write into a musical in the 50s.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Yeah, you have to be carefully taught. Yeah, I I go back to that, right? Yeah. Some things are timeless, and this is a timeless topic, right? We'll always be talking about race in some kind of capacity, right? I don't think racism will ever end.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

Talk to me about that now, as far as you know, the the current climate, because I I would like to say that, you know, once we had a black president and once we had gay people who were more out and leading open lives, and once we had all that, that we would be leaving behind the people and the times where we were so discriminated against. And yet and still we find ourselves back where we are in 2025.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Exactly. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Tell me why, why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_00 40:35

And even the germ and like not even having like uh gender-affirming care. I mean, being really threatened when you think about that.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Well, well, tell me this. Tell me this as a I'm not gonna ask you to educate, but I but I am gonna ask you as my friend to tell me why you think that why you as a human being, regardless of your skin color and your gender, why do you think that it keeps cycling back around that we use race and gender and sexuality to dehumanize people?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

It's a weapon. You know, I think it's a weapon. And so it's easy to use this weapon. So when it's convenient, it comes back around, you know. And I think it's a cultural moment. So whatever the cultural moment is, how what weapon do we use? We use racism or do we use gender? What is it that we use to weaponize what we're trying to achieve? I really I it comes around, that's why I say racism will never end. It's just where in the cultural moment it appears, right? So you could say, um, in 1995, I didn't experience everything, it was just great. You know, black music was popping and everything, and I didn't experience anything. Yeah, but it was still going on, it just wasn't at the cultural moment. And then of course with George Floyd happened, it brought it forefront. And now it's interesting you're seeing folks who built a business off of say wokeism, but you know, all of that now don't have jobs because that they were that's what they were doing. They were walking into corporations helping them be quote woke. Um, and now unfortunately, some of those positions no longer. I think the work will never end. I think they'll continue to do the work, they'll just title it differently.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Well, because we're not in that cultural moment anymore. But let's have, can we can we have kind of a tough conversation that I think I could only have with you and maybe I don't know who else I have it with, but yes, let's have that tough conversation. How do you feel about the woke movement? And I use that word on purpose because that's the word that people on the other side, that's what they call it. So when they talk, what what do you think about that moniker?

SPEAKER_00 42:45

I you know, when I think when I think of woke, you know, I think it's always existed. It's a play on words, right? It's a to me, it's a play on words. The meaning is the thing, like we want you to be awake, ready to awake, be awake to the troubles, to the the hardships of the inequities, all that be awake, be awake, be awake. Right. So, what are other ways that we can say that without saying woke? Because woke is a trigger word now. People are losing their jobs. You say, Well, funding is being taken away. You say, Woke, it can't be in your mission statement. So, how are you still gonna do the work? We're not gonna say, Oh, we're never gonna do the work again. How do you still do the work and give it a different title? Right? So, I think that it's always it had its moment. I think it was always boiling there, it was already there. It's forcing people to recognize the inequities, the the injustices in your face. Now people can have it in your face. Well, before it was all subtle, like I'm not getting promoted, I'm not everything was just quiet. It was already there, it was quiet. And then when that culture movement after George Floyd was already there, it just was like, okay, now I can come out and say it. Now nice and loud. You need to be woke. Now we're angry. So some of it, I think, is we gotta be careful that like my husband has a different perspective. He thinks that it can be weaponized. Like some people were faking it, some people were using it to abuse others.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

I agree with your like I think there seagos, you gotta be careful. Some were really doing the work, but then you had some people over here say, Hey, this is my opportunity to abuse the power.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

Well, see, that's what I think. Because again, like you and I, I move through my life as a queer man, but it's only anybody else's problem that I'm queer. It's not mine. Right? I don't I don't need a label for it. I don't need anything for it. I'm just living my life. You move through life as a black woman. It's nobody else's, it's not your problem, it's anybody else's problem. And what people do, my experience, and the reason I asked you this question is because I'm a little tired of it. Like the the I I'm not tired of the need to be awake and to be conscious and to be respectful and to ask questions and to communicate and to find that common ground, but I'm really annoyed with the movement that and I can only speak to the LGBTQIA2 movement. I there's a part of me that liked it better when nobody was paying so much attention to me.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

That's really interesting because I think, like, you know, I think when people say, Oh, I'm uncomfortable, or I'm uncomfortable about like listen, we got to have the conversation. I think it's important. How do you have the conversation without shame? How do I have the conversation without pointing?

SPEAKER_03 45:34

What conversation is that, Tiffany?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

The conversation about race. Okay, the wokeness. How do I have a conversation about the inequities without saying, you did it to me, or I feel, and I'm not trying to gain symphony, but I will say this to those who say, Well, I'm you know, uncomfortable with this now. I'm tired. I will say your comfort is not the center of the conversation. So once we take your comfort out of that conversation, now we can get down and dirty about what it really means. It's not you. But what like I have a friend, I have a I have a white friend that I love dearly, and he will, he's always mad. And he will say, Well, I don't go around saying black privilege.

SPEAKER_05 46:11

Wait, what's he what's he mad about?

SPEAKER_00 46:12

What's he mad about? He he would be really upset. He was like, I'm tired. He goes, I'm sorry, Tiffany, I gotta have this conversation with you, but I'm tired of being everywhere I go at work, people like you're your white privilege, you're white privilege. He goes, Well, what about black privilege? And what about Asian privilege? And what about this privilege? And then now the conversation is when I have, he'll say, Well, my so-called privilege. So he he kind of goes, Well, I understand, but my so-called privilege.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

When George Floyd was happening, I remember as a white man having my own frustration, which is about the time that we started having our podcast, because I wanted to, or excuse me, when we were on Instagram Lives, I wanted to start to understand the feeling I was feeling because suddenly as a white man, even though I'm queer, I was as a white man, there were lots of conversations happening around me that didn't make me feel good about being a white man. And I was talking to someone and I said, Look, I was poor. I was molested as a kid, I had abuse, I had addiction in my house. We didn't, I had to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they said to me, Great, now imagine all of that, and your skin is black and you can't walk through the world, and you're dealing with all that. That is white privilege. White privilege is that you can have all the same problems as someone else, but you're white. So you're gonna walk into a room and you're gonna have a space in that room whereas someone who's black or brown or Asian or whatever, they walk into that room and they have all the problems, but now also they stand out. And you can't deny that.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

You can't, it's like walking into exactly. I totally agree. But it's also like walking into uh a department store and not having someone follow you, right? You don't that would feel weird, be like, why are you following me? I didn't do anything. But you know, you're sometimes if you're a person of color, you're walking in, you'll automatically get maybe someone that will follow you for no apparent reason because of that.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

And as a white person, you you don't know that that's happening because it's not happening to you.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

You don't like, well, I never did that. They were nice to me. Well, why are they not nice to you? Right, right. Right. So there they don't understand. But I think it at that time, what that movement taught me, that moment movement taught me was the the friends and those who were really wanted to learn their reading books and stuff, they were doing more listening. And that was very key for me. Those who were willing to listen rather than saying, Well, I believe and you uh pointing. Um, that's the problem, is that that humility because the shame came up. Like, I don't want to be told I should feel and you're pointing the finger, and I'm I don't want to feel like I'm a bad person, so I'm gonna defend myself instead of listening. So that came up first. And I could tell those who were willing to go, I'm going to put my comfort aside because it's very uncomfortable, even though I know you're not pointing, even though I know you're not shaming, to just sit in that uncomfortness, you know, I'm being uncomfortable and listen with understanding, without comment. That takes a lot of humility because the ego wants to rise up in the moment. Everyone's talking doing.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

I've been there. I mean, I've been there just the man-woman thing. You know, I find I think I have more triggers around the fact that I see have to constantly combat my daughter's perception of men because of what's put out into the world about men, because men have in many ways been terrible. But also, you know, this fight between men and women, we're at a place right now where everyone wants to pick a side about everything. We, you know, since since Barack Obama, and and I, whatever your feelings are about Barack Obama, since that happened, our Western society has been upended. Because how could a black man be telling white people what to do? I mean, that it was just that's just what it was.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Like, how could exactly it was, and it struck a chord.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

It struck a chord, and not to to claim to paint everybody as racist in the South where I'm from, but I know there are plenty of people who said, Who's that boy in that White House?

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Oh, yeah, yeah, telling me what to do.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

So we've been in this place, and now we have these super, super angry people who've carried around angry anger for generation after generation after generation.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

And their power, right? The power structure, right? They want it to be like it was back in the 1950s, and you know, you obey, and yes, ma'am. They want that. They want that. The they're becoming a lot of the listen, it's becoming a nation of people of color, right? And so and people of queerness and people of that's another thing that I find that that's where when you see the political divide, I see it in the gender gap, the gender, and you know, gender affirming, and no, a man is a man. I've been around so many people where I even ask my friends who um they say, Well, I'm you know, I'm gender neutral and this is what I prefer to be called and whatever. And then I'm around other people, especially at my church or something, they'll say, She or he. Well, he was born he and I'm just gonna call he. And I'm born or she. I'm like, but they just told you how they want to be identified. So are you either a ignoring how they want to be identified or you're choosing not?

SPEAKER_03 51:14

But let's talk about that for a second, because I had a child who went through a gender discussion, as so many of them did of a certain age, and they had this conversation around whether they were, you know, trans and has have since come back to the fact that they are not. But in the in the middle of the conversation itself, my job as a parent was to hold space for her, to allow her to explore, to not judge her, to not be ashamed. But I'm a queer person, so I understand what it's like to need that kind of space. But I, you know, playing devil's advocate, I also can tell now by looking back at it that there was a large, there was a there was a moment, it was kind of like a fad. It was kind of trendy for young people to try to figure out if they were part of the LGBTQ, IA2 Plus community. Fine, great. It didn't do anybody any sort of harm or disservice. But I do find that, like you said, there are people, and like your you said your husband alluded to, there are people who suddenly find their identity in fighting for for wokeness, in fighting for everybody to be a part of this kind of conversation. And it can be weaponized on both sides. So for instance, if I happen to have a more conservative understanding or a more conservative opinion about things, and again, I don't know that conservative or woke are the right words to use, but if I have an opinion that's not on one end of the spectrum, I, particularly living in Hollywood, I have to keep my mouth shut. Because guess what happens then? I'm not part of that, that push, that movement on the other side. You know, if I say, look, I don't want labels, I don't want queer, I don't want to have the labels are your your need. I don't want pronouns, I don't want any of that, right? That I to have that opinion, and that is my opinion, it it can it can cause problems because people on either side will will weaponize that. Like maybe someone on the more conservative side will see, they will say, Christopher, he he agrees with us. He's a queer man who agrees with us. I don't. The people on the woke side will say, Well, he's against us. I'm not against, I just am a human who has my own experience of life, right? Which is where I think we need to.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

And you're entitled for that. Yeah, you're entitled.

SPEAKER_03 53:24

That's right. And I don't need anybody on either side to agree with me, but I need to be allowed to have my experience of life, not to be on either end of that, right? So it feels like now we're being pushed to either be over here or over here, not to find space in the middle. And you and I have always come from the middle.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Yeah, well, I think that you know, the whole polarizing it you in the I think, I mean, George Floyd, it was definitely like you could feel the racial tensions divide, right? But now, because of what's going on in the world with Gaza and you know, Ukraine and Russia, you're finding the politics in that. You're finding the divide in that. So, yes, race is still there, but you're finding the values and what we value, and those things are becoming more polarizing. So, when you talk to somebody on either side, my conversation is not even about race anymore. It's about Gaza, it's about, you know, uh Ukraine and Russia. It's what it's about. It's about those conversations. It's interesting. So I find that in any, if I say, hey, what do you think about, you know, if I even mention the word woke, they're like, I'm past that. Let's talk about Gaza. Let's talk about Ukraine. Let's go, who cares? That's where the conversation goes. So it's really fascinating politically where we are. I think it's a little bit more expansive.

SPEAKER_03 54:39

Well, here's what's here's what I think is really interesting about what you just said. Here's what I think is really interesting. You you went back to values again. And I think you're so right. And I hadn't thought about this before, but it really resonates with me. We're not we're not having actual conversations about race or gender or sexuality. We're having values-based conversations, and those just happen to be the things that people can point at to weaponize and divide because the power structures, the people who need to have power, they need to give an enemy to their to their followers. And that enemy is based upon not like we say, we think, we think on our side, because of the way that, or let's let's say for me, for example, it feels sometimes like they're coming after queer people. They're not, they're coming after people who hold different values, exactly, which is why queer people can be part of that group still and be queer. And black people can be a part of that group and still be black because they adopt the values.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

It's the values, and I think when you talk about ideas, we can get around that. We can argue all day and yay or nay, we can debate, but the values are non-negotiables. And yeah, sometimes our values will shift, sometimes we'll be more expansive, but that is like deal breakers for people. Think about how you date people. What are the deal breakers and those values, right? Trust. What are those values? And so when you argue with someone and you're attacking the values, you're attacking their core belief, you're attacking who they are, you're taking the heart and tearing it apart. And that is unbearable. That's unbearable. And therefore, you get the anger and the resentment and the uh pushback and not listening and not listening to understand. They're listening to win or listen to be right. So sometimes I'll with people who are very like, no, I'm right, and who are very different from me, when I ask, how did you get to that place? And they'll say, This, this, this, this, have you considered a may I offer? And I always ask because if you tell people, no, if you offer, okay, I invited. So may I offer you a different perspective? And then they're like, Okay, sure. Then I can say something. But if I just say, Well, I disagree, and I, you know what, I feel they've already shut me out. So at the end, do I really want to get this person? I know I'm not gonna change their mind. Only God can change hearts. But what I want to do is to have them think later about what I said. I want when they're brushing their teeth to think about when they watch a movie. Yeah, that's what I want. I'm not trying to change you. I can't do that. But what I can do is have you think. I'm gonna give you, and I just asked you for a different perspective to to then be able to share. Are you open to that? Well, have you thought about this perspective? I always think about I use certain language because certain language is non-threatening, non-threatening. I'm thinking about what is non-trigger, non-threatening language, because people respond to language.

SPEAKER_03 57:44

And you know why you think about that and why I think because I do the same thing. And in my in my work, in my life, I I'm responsible for leading a lot of people. And it's important to learn those skills. And by and large, I find, you know, that this goes back to the question about why do you think that why why is it that black women have to be teachers so much? Because you've had to move through life, and in order to thrive and survive, you've had to learn how to hold space and have those conversations. I've had to learn to do that to a certain degree as well, being a queer man. Those people who haven't had it's a it is a learned skill. And that's what I wish people would take the time to understand. That we, you know, it it's very easy to use social media and the news to divide people and religion, to divide people and race and gender and all that to divide people so that you can gain a power structure. Because if you teach people to talk and ask questions in order to understand what happens, power falls away. Connection happens.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Exactly. And so I always say pride is artificial and vulnerability is real. So having that that kind of connection, you know, because sometimes you talk to people, they don't want connection. Like they made a decision, I don't want connection, but then something happens if you share a story that softens the blow, right? Um, I think that's why art heals, right? You can you don't have to point at the stage and go, yeah, that's me. You can you can you can have discussions about what you see because it's not pointing at me, even though it's me, right? It's less threatening. But I think also I would love to have a conversation one day about curiosity, why some people are not curious. Like, you know, I'm sure you've been in rooms where you ask a lot of questions and no one's curious about what you do.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

You know, and I don't want to chuck it up to oh, they're just self-absorbed. There's always something underneath. Maybe fear that they will feel inadequate or something, or they don't measure up because then if I ask you what you're doing, you're gonna tell me something great and I have nothing to show. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 59:54

That could be you know what one I'm gonna share something that's a little controversial for me. Yeah, please. I don't Think all people are created equal in that capacity. I think that you have the worker bees, you have the worker ants, and then you have that. Like, I think that people are You're right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

You are so right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:10

They're created for different roles, but I also don't think we should judge people for filling whatever their role is, right? Like, but I I have asked myself that question a lot. Why aren't you more curious? Why don't you want to learn? Well, I actually believe God has a place for all of us because it is in those, it is in being up against people who aren't curious or seem to have a closed mind that I am forced to dig deeper into myself and learn more and then share more. It's that contrast that helps me learn.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

I love that. That okay, that's that's heavy. That's so heavy. That's like light bulb moment. Um my husband says that he he's a leader, and he'll say, Honey, not everybody wants greatness because it costs work. Not everybody wants greatness. Some people are worker bees. You gotta know he was trying to like promote somebody, um, and they didn't want that. And you know, not everybody wants some people are worker bees, and then some people are doers. He goes, There's several we have doers, looky-lou's people who looking and seeing what you're doing, looky-loos, and the worker bees, because you need worker bees, right? Because if you got an idea and you're leading, oh, you need a worker bee that's good at what they do to help that vision come alive, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

But you're right, not everybody is created equal. And I love that. Not everybody's created equal in terms of curiosity um and learning, and I find that interesting and capacity and mental capacity.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:39

And and I, you know, I'm not you're really smart.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

I mean, you went to Northwestern. I remember when I first met you, and I love this story. When I first met you, um it because you know, you're just so confident. I loved it on the cruise ship. You said, uh, I said, Oh my God, we were learning music. I said, You're really smart. You're like, Yeah, I went to Northwestern.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:02

I did not say that. I did not say that. Oh, how pompous of me.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

Northwestern, it can be dummies from Northwestern, you know, and I knew I was like, oh yeah, it's Ivy Lee. Yeah, dummies can't go to Northwestern. Oh my goodness. You're just like, hello.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:13

That was just my young arrogance. You know, I feel I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:17

You're like, I went to Northwestern.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:19

I'm sure you took me down a notch and that that taught me something right there. I'm sure. Listen, I am not, I'm not Pollyanna about um our world. I don't feel like I don't feel like we're ever going to achieve utopia, and I don't feel like we were ever meant to. I don't feel like we will ever, as a world society, all believe that that our interests should be focused on the collective. I just, I don't see it happening. I've not seen any progress toward it in my lifetime and in studying history. I've just seen the same cycles repeat over and over and over and over again. And I think what where we are right now is we have people fighting for this life that we think that we want. And frankly, I think the idea that our country is connected, like, look, here's how I feel about it. I'm perfectly happy for everybody to just be divided and go to their own corners. Like, you know what I mean? And the people who want to meet in the middle can meet in the middle. But I think this idea that we're suddenly going to come up with one ideology, one belief system, and everyone's gonna wrap their arms around it, I think it's bogus.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

I love that perspective. That's really fascinating. I never considered that. You know, it's kind of like the being the parent. Like, stop fighting children, go in your corner. And then those who want to come and talk, let's meet in the middle. And I think it might not be in our lifetime. This is the thing, progress is slow. And so it's so hard. I I agree that I feel the same way. I want to throw my hands up, but the work can never, we can never give up, right? And so I always say slow and steady wins the race. So even if you're like, I'm still moving and we're repeating history and I am tired of repeating, you still little tiny movements eventually. So nothing will happen. We'll really be in our corners if we say we throw our hands up and say, I'm done. So I think the idea is that you don't have to act well, act good based on how you feel. Just because you don't feel like it doesn't mean you need to act it, right? So you don't feel like, I don't feel like, you know, being responsible, telling people what to do. I don't feel like doing this anymore. But the but the action of still doing it, not giving up, even though you're feeling one way and doing it, are very different. I think not giving up is important. It is because one thing is certain is that when you throw your hands up, we know what the end is. Yeah, we're gonna be even more divided. Yeah, and we're really gonna turn back the clock. And it's gonna affect every, it's gonna infiltrate every area, not just our camps, our values, but our workforce, our government, our country. We're already at a very vulnerable place right now. Um you're so right.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:53

And the reason that I said that what I what I said just now was because I know there are a lot of people who are feeling that way. And I want to admit that at moments I feel that way as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

I feel that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:03

But it's important to hear you say that and for us to to reaffirm that look, even if you can't get out on, and I I'm really this sounds political. I don't even mean it politically, like I just mean it socially, emotionally, spiritually. If you can't create a better world at large because you're not in that position of power, you can wake up every day and intentionally create the most loving, kind, cohesive version of your corner of the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

You're doing that now with your girls.

unknown 1:05:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Right? You're you're modeling that, you're doing that now. You know, you haven't you haven't thrown up your hands and said, All right, I'm done, guys. No, no, you feel one way, and it's okay we admit that. We're human, but you're choosing the action of something different than what you feel.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:50

Oh, talk about smart, Tiffany.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

So that is what I'm talking about, yeah, is that you don't have to feel good to do good. Because if I felt if I if I acted on my feelings, I wouldn't be doing jack.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:59

Say that again, say that again.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

You don't have to feel good to do good. Yeah, so you you're talking, you're about to talk, you're talking about two things here. You're talking about your feelings, we got to acknowledge those feelings, and then you're talking about the action. So what's important is not to always it's okay to live in those feelings for a minute, but you can't stay there, you can't be married there. If you were like Tiffany, I've decided I have given up, then you've given up on every areas of your life in that way. Yeah, and I think you can't do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:30

That's really powerful. I'm gonna because then you don't do your best work. That's really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

You become part of the problem. Yeah, you become the so it's just it's hard. You it's it's complicated, it's nuanced, and and this kind of conversation is very expansive, right? We could go either way with this, but I think if someone's listening is to I want them to walk away thinking I don't have to feel good to do good. I still can still make little, I can still do the action, even if it's small and minute, just a little action because it will create the change. If you give up now, then all is lost. You're getting this very you're it's it's very clear where you're in.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

So and I think you don't want your and you wouldn't want the people that you love dearly to be in their camp.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:17

No, that's right. I think that this is, you know, I could talk to you all day, and we'll have to do this again. Um, but if you were to, for those who are listening right now, from your experience in life as a human being, gender aside, skin color aside, sexuality aside, all that aside, what if this is the only thing anybody ever took away from you, what would you want them to? What would you want to share with people?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:43

Well, still live your best life, but the one thing I would want you to take away is just know that never dim your light for someone's comfort. Never dim your light of who you are. In any body, frame, color, gender, never dim your light for someone else's comfort. That means your work, it means your family, never dim your light of who you are. Because if your identity is all you got, and if you if you let that go, then you're just a show. Who who do you have? That identity carries stories, and that is powerful. No one can take away your story, right? I always say know your own story because someone will come along and hijack your story, take it and then and use it for something else. And so that's what I want to leave people with. Never dim your life with someone else's comfort.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:38

That's beautiful. Tiffany Cooper, I love you, I respect you, and I'm so grateful for your presence in my life and for your presence here with me today. And there they're, you know, it's a small audience, but it's a mighty audience, and I know you're gonna touch a lot of people with your life story and or bits of it. And let's do this again. Can we do this again?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

I would love to do this again. Thank you so much for having me. And I feel the same way about you. This has just been a blessing.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:02

It's my pleasure. Okay, everybody, until next time, take good care of yourself. We'll talk to you soon. Bye bye. Uncided.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

I'm cited, I'm sighted.