THE UNSIDED PODCAST
Our world is divided - economically, racially, morally, spiritually, and politically divided. We are divided by sexuality and by gender. We are divided by belief which has been handed down by our family and foisted upon us by our community. Social media and the 24-hour news cycle only further muddy the waters of understanding. In a world brimming with divisions, staying open-minded is more challenging than ever. But what if we could change that narrative?
UNSIDED leaps headlong into these divides, not to widen them, but to bridge them through conversation. A conversation that explores all sides and uncovers the intersections. A conversation that requires vulnerability and willingness to learn from others. Here we allow for a space in which like-minded people can come to better understand what motivates others and to grow themselves, even if mistakes are made along the way. No judgement. No shaming. No cancelling. Just endless curiosity and ultimately, connection.
THE UNSIDED PODCAST
BRANDON ROUTH: THE COURAGE TO BECOME YOURSELF
Recently I sat down with my friend and colleague Brandon Routh—you know, SUPERMAN Brandon Routh—and it wasn’t about movies or stunts or about Hollywood at all really. It was about life. About being vulnerable and brave enough to show up fully and lean into who you really are. About figuring out what matters to you when no one’s watching and how you can make the world a better place for those around you by first going within.
We get into some of the big moments that have shaped him, the lessons he’s learned about trusting himself and others to allow him to be exactly who he is, and the ways he works to live intentionally—honestly, I think there’s a lot in here that anyone can relate to, whether you know him as a celebrity or just as a human figuring things out like the rest of us.
It was definitely a conversation that stuck with me long after we stopped recording, and I think it’ll stick with you too.
Let’s get into it.
Have a conversation you’d like us to explore? Send us a text!
Produced by Kristofer McNeeley
Engineered and Edited by Kristofer McNeeley & Abed Khatib
Original Music by Abed Khatib
Cover Art Design by Mohamad Jaafar
Hey everybody, it's Christopher. Before we get into this episode, I just have to tell you you are in for a real treat. A gift, actually. My buddy Brandon Roth came by and sat with me. He's an actor whom you probably know as Superman from the 2006 film Superman Returns, or Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, or in the NBC series Chuck, or perhaps you know him as Superman in Legends of Tomorrow, and many, many other credits. And he came forward and agreed to sit down with me and have a really vulnerable, open conversation about what it means to be Brandon and how he sees life and how his mind works. And as you know, if you've listened at all before, I talk about the fact that I've always thought my mind worked a little differently, that it feels like there's a lot going on in my mind, and maybe I don't always make sense, and there's a lot of tangents that happen. And when I sat down to talk to Brandon just personally, I realized we share a similar kind of thought process. He challenges me in ways to think outside of an opinion or idea that I might have formed. And this conversation was no different. I came away with a better understanding of myself and a better understanding of Brandon, which, you know, it's always lovely to hear from people who are willing to share the entirety of who they are, even if it feels vulnerable, because it allows us all to know that we are more similar than we are different. So wherever you are, whenever you happen to be listening to this, I encourage you to take a moment and really, you know, let Brandon share with you who he is, because if you're anything like me, you will be inspired to be a better version, a more honest version of yourself, just as I was. Okay, here we go.
SPEAKER_00:This is Unsided.
SPEAKER_01:Unsided, unsided. Hey everybody, it's Christopher. Welcome back to another episode of Unsided. I'm so happy to have you here with me. I always am happy to be in conversation with you. Today, uh, I have with me somebody that I just met uh maybe about a year ago. And we haven't we haven't had it's about a year, right? Exactly almost. Yeah, and we haven't had a lot of time one-on-one. Um, but without further ado, this is Brandon Routh. Brandon, I'm so happy to get with me.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, thank you. I'm very, I'm very excited that I am here with you now. I've been waiting even since you know the first time I listened to the uh the first episode back in January.
SPEAKER_01:You said I think you've listened to much of the podcast, so you know a little bit about how my mind works.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I'm just interested in good conversation and exploring how other people's minds work because I think it makes me a better person.
SPEAKER_02:I uh I agree.
SPEAKER_01:The same for me. So I want to know, Brandon, can we just go back for a second? Just because I did a little bit of research on what you have out there in the way of podcasts and obviously haven't seen all of your thousands of interviews, but I'd love to know just about the man Brandon. You grew up in Iowa?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. I am from Norwalk, Iowa, which is about five miles south of Des Moines, south of the airport. So a small town, but next to the big city. Okay. Big city of Des Moines, Iowa.
SPEAKER_01:The big I you know, I've never been to Des Moines, Iowa, I have to say.
SPEAKER_02:It's a lovely place.
SPEAKER_01:So your family has been in Iowa for a while.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, my my uh my both my parents were born in well, my dad was born in Texas, but spent all his life in in Iowa, and my mother also. And then her family, most of most of my other family, my grandparents also um spent a great deal of time in Iowa, um, as far as I know, generations, you know, wise.
SPEAKER_01:And what was your childhood like? Was it it sounds like it was probably pretty idyllic and slow paced, but tell me.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely slow paced. Um, and yeah, I uh and the older I get, I don't know that what idyllic means to to anybody necessarily. What is everybody's childhood is so drastically different. Um but I have I came away from Iowa with a story that I had a great childhood, uh my early childhood anyway, um, up until about you know teenage years, I suppose. Um had lots of friends running around the neighborhood. I lived a block and a half a block from my grandma, grandpa. So I spent a lot of time with my grandparents and um um so family was very, very big. Uh and there was uh uh anyway, and uh and also a block away from a farm from a corn cornfield. So though I didn't grow up in a farm or at a farm, I was definitely close to them and spent a lot of time walking through them uh and going, you know, journeying in the crick in the wilderness a little bit. Uh wilderness is too much to say, but yeah, I was more of a I had a lot of freedom as a as a child.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I um I want to go back to something you said, but I don't know if you recall this or not or if I ever mentioned it. But I grew up in Oklahoma.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:So not entirely dissimilar, I think probably that kind of I like that you paused at the word idyllic, because you're right. What does that mean? It's so subjective. But I'm curious about what you said when you you said you left with the story of having had a good childhood. Does that mean something more, or is that just face?
SPEAKER_02:I think I think it um I have amazing parents. I've always had amazing parents who did and continue to do the best they can to be people, just as I am uh doing my best to become a uh a better parent all the time. I've done the best I could to this point and continuing to do um the best I can. And I think before I got a hold of my I don't know, as you get older, and I've told the story of my family and growing up so many times, as an as an actor, sometimes it becomes a bit of a story, right? Because I'm I'm taught I'm I'm summarizing it for an interview. And then I don't want to be long-winded. So I said, Yeah, I don't wonder it was great childhood, and and I did, and I did, but that doesn't encapsulate all of my childhood.
SPEAKER_03:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:Uh and so in in an effort for me to kind of understand myself better through the years of therapy that I've done and talking about family as important and and past history and past patterns that exist, um, so I can see how they show up in my life. I have gone back and reflected and found that you know my childhood was amazing, but also I had challenges. Like I had traumatic childhood, you know, in my own way, experiences that that were emotionally impactful for me. And to say that I just had a great childhood is to like put it in a neat little box. And that can work, but I'm I'm at the age or the time in my life uh that I'm ready to unpack it a little bit and understand, um, hold the whole truth, you know. Um, I guess. So that's kind of what it means.
SPEAKER_01:No, I do, I I totally get that. And that is actually, I again, you've listened to some of the episodes and you you've had at least a little bit of time with me, so you understand that small talk is not really my forte anyway, and short sound bites are not. So it was less to challenge you. I like that, I like the answer that you just gave because it wasn't about challenging you, it was it was thinking, okay, how how would I describe my childhood? And I started my therapy work in my 20s, I started my self-exploration in my 20s, so that's 30 something years ago.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Now earlier than me, earlier than I.
SPEAKER_01:It never ends. No, I I remember sitting down with my therapist when I first went and saying, Hey, I'd like to, I have my insurance for my my actor's insurance for three more months. Can we finish this up in three months? Can we can we be done? And I I wasn't being silly. I honestly thought, having never been to therapy, have or never really unpacked my life, it won't take long. I can do this, it's no problem. I just need to figure out a couple new survival tactics and I can scoot on out the door. But what I learned about my mind and what I would be so bold as to say about what little I know about your mind, and is that there's so much more that my mind naturally needs to understand the context that it needs around things. I don't do well um with uh quick fixes of any kind. It doesn't serve me. Um, it doesn't serve me to to, you know, in certain situations, in certain moments, I'm really good at keeping, you know, this is the Christopher that you get. I'm sure, Brandon, as a celebrity, you have to do that many, many exponentially more times than I do. You have to develop what you're showing to the world, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Or be conscious, be aware of it, and and and yeah, you can you can develop it is the thing, the good thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Did you find that when you first gained your celebrity, that it was challenging for you to figure out what to keep for yourself in your exploration and what to share with the world?
SPEAKER_02:I don't know if I could define it that well for myself, or I was uh was able to like unpack it enough, or I just can't answer that question in that way. But I'd say that I like I I was conscious that I was conscious on a level of interacting with public and being uh the fulfilling the role model aspect, the image of Superman aspect, as far as I understood and could do that at that time. Um my ability to be genuine and authentic and uh empathetic with people uh has grown over the years. And so I had a like a childlike uh understanding of it at the time, I feel like, or a juvenile understanding. And um and so I was kind of conscious of of shifting into that, what I wasn't conscious of shifting out of it, you know. And and often I was often I realize now maybe I was more conscious when I was actually interacting with public than I was in my normal life. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, because of ADHD. Oh yeah, tell me about that. Possibly. I mean, I like ADHD is a thing, it's a thing, but I also don't blame or try not to label. I just like it's a functional word that helps us and me to understand myself and and the the those that are that are in that energy category, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:So did you actually do an exploration into ADHD? Did you speak with someone about it?
SPEAKER_02:Or yeah, I I I mean I was diagnosed by a by a psychiatrist and I was um taking um I was on I cut a tried a couple different um pharmaceuticals. Um as an adult? Yeah, just in the last four years. Okay. Uh what prompted you to to explore that? Um uh Courtney. Um my I still I it's new, so I'm talking about ex-wife, but it's such a whatever term. The and to say the the the mother of my of my son is weird too. But Courtney, um, my friend Courtney, uh uh, you know, after spending a lot of time with me, years and years of of time with me, after a while, she's like, what can explain these odd behaviors? And um, you know, I was finally ready to listen and hear that maybe it was something that I instead of hearing it as like um um a label and something that was wrong with me, I was able to go, oh, I can see how maybe this is affecting somebody else, so I can help. And and also she sent me this great article about how ADHD affects the the other partner in any kind of relationship, whether it be friendship or or uh marriage. And I was able to read those other people's experiences and see, oh, I'm not the only one who's hearing these things from their partner. And um, and also, oh wow, other people are having this challenge. I'm not alone. Um and I think for me that touches on childhood stuff too, because like I I I built up this story of me, this pattern of not being an issue, not being the problem, uh, of being the one that was okay. Not that anybody was bad, but I just like, and I was because I grew up in the church, and so then I was also like a role model, and my mom was a teacher, and it was a small town, so I had to be like a good boy, I felt like, and I had this image. So that those people don't have problems or talk about their problems or get angry or upset, you know. So I was that was the story, and um so I couldn't help myself because I couldn't allow, see that I was wrong. Therefore, I was wrong a lot, but couldn't take responsibility for the the the little bit of miscommunication, all these things I was having with friends and family all the way through the years, because I couldn't couldn't look inward enough enough to make to be wrong. Um because wrong equal bad or mistake equal bad. But that's all these are all conversations, these are all labels. Um anyway, those those words. And so when I started not labeling those so much and being kinder to myself, then I was able to be more vulnerable and take more responsibility, which made gave for more and room for more empathy because I could see the other person's side, and I could see how then I could have more empathy for myself, and then comes like more grace and understanding, and then like the cycle kind of continues. That's right, but there's kind of some kind of cycle like that that repeats in like all of our interactions. You know, there's an opportunity to like recycle that energy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I get it, I get it on such a visceral level. So many different things that you said, even though I hope that's connected.
SPEAKER_02:I hope that story connected for us.
SPEAKER_01:It no, it did connect, but here's something important, Brandon. You know, I I have just had to give in to the idea that this podcast, this little corner of the world, which I started, I didn't do it for anybody else. I did it because I'm so fascinated by conversation and the human condition. And in doing so, there were multiple times, like I kind of gave a slow rollout. I think I'm episode 15 now, about eight months in, because I was judging myself so much because the way my mind works, the way conversation works for me is it's not it's not linear. It is linear, but it's not linear because I have 15 tangents that are coming off of every conversation at every moment, and I want to explore all of them. Yeah. You know, what I thought about when you were talking about your experience growing up and learning to be the good kid, you know, especially with a parent as a teacher and growing up in the church. I didn't have a parent as a teacher, but I grew up in the church. I grew up in small town Oklahoma, just outside Oklahoma City, um, was a small town of about 3,000 people where my family was from. There's a certain kind of vibe that comes with that. And I was, you know, my father's since passed, God rest his soul, but he was, he didn't reach his potential. So suddenly I was his only, I was the only grandson, the only offspring that was going to potentially fulfill that missed potential. And so I adopted also when I sat down with my therapist that day, one of the things I said was, my survival tactics aren't working anymore. And one of them was to be the good guy. But I what what that produced and deep inside me was an anger, a frustration because I didn't fully express myself ever. Did you ever feel any of those feelings?
SPEAKER_02:Um, I was prone to like big emotion, like like more like um like I would cry when I was upset as a kid. Something would happen, I will feel wronged and justified and upset, but I wouldn't be angry. I just like cry. And as a kid, that was like embarrassing, right? In front of my friends or the teachers or whom whomever it was. And uh as I got older, um it led to me being a people pleaser and not speaking up and not creating my own boundaries and speaking up for myself. So yeah, that builds uh resentment that usually you don't, I didn't want confrontation. So when I was finally able to like speak my truth, it would come out in a short little burst of like just too much. And also like so almost a feeling of like it never never hurt never close to hurting anybody. It's just like it's like a trying to think of a like a hose that you'd stop stopped up for a while, uh-huh, and then it you'd got it on max and it just like has that little like point and then it can't even it's not even making any sense. Uh but it's so passionate to to like let the you know it's its feelings out that it doesn't make much sense. Yeah, the story made much sense.
SPEAKER_01:No, you yeah, you are explaining the physical, you know. I feel it when you give me that reference of the hose, I feel it. And I know that other people listening are gonna feel it. And I I would say from my personal experience, I'm only recently starting to pay attention. You're a little ahead of me in this sense. I've done a lot of work in general, but I I haven't really stopped to think about okay, how does Christopher show up in the world? Like my my husband talks to me about this all the time, and it's a very new concept for me because the way that I learned to show up in the world was to make sure everybody else was comfortable with who I am. And so in the moments when that pressure would release, people would get a very different version of me, even though I had been holding on to it for so long. And even if it wasn't cruel or unkind or it would just come out, it would be I learned later that that's also part of people pleasing, but it would it would be that people felt like they had been duped. So I got this part of you, I bought into this part of Christopher, and I'm talking about particularly my younger years, and now you're showing me this part of Christopher. I didn't sign up for that, but the fact was I was just containing it because I thought it was too much. What's the other part? What was the other part? The other part is okay. I maybe you'll get this. I talked to some people about it, they don't necessarily get it. I find emotions sometimes troublesome, they cloud logic for me. And when someone's talking to me, if I have to cut through all the niceties to get to the truth, it's exhausting because I'm seeing on some level the truth level of the truth of what they're saying anyway. I'm feeling it. Yeah. And it's like they're telling me a lie in some ways because they're not telling the truth. And so I realize I have been doing the same thing. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, we're kind of like I I love this conversation in all of our conversations that we've had thus far because we're like two two sides of the same coin, uh opposite sides of the same coin in some way. Tell me my side of that is I I work to stay more in me and not let not let them, like let them be and just like bounce it, bounce it off of me.
SPEAKER_01:But you have to know who you are to do that, or be present.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, yeah, it's it's it's also just being like when you're in a happier mood, sometimes you might notice that that's even easier, and that doesn't that might not upset uh uh uh or or trigger that reaction from you as much. Maybe you could sit with a a different conversation depending on how you're feeling that day. Because I'd say that, like I said, I I can't, I don't always what I just described, which sounds nice and lovely, I'm not always doing it all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course not, because we're different versions of ourselves on different days, but realizing that you're you know, I it is two two sides of the same coin. However, when you and it may just be the way that I am explaining it, when you talk about kind of referencing the idea that on some days you're better than others, and you can get through it and you can do it, and you can be present and you can listen and you can pay attention to how you know, be with yourself. It's the being with myself part that was new. Because even through all of my years of therapy, I was still I realized that I was still looking at it through the lens of okay, wait a minute, how can I change who I am to be better? Which is a very important question to ask. I like to ask myself that question, especially as a parent, as a husband, as a as a as a in my work. But there are also some things that just get to be Christopher. This is who I am, and I'm gonna be okay. Okay with that. And I'm not a person who walks around triggered all the time. That's not my state of being. But I'm insatiably curious when I am about why I am. And so I'm going to get really personal for a second. For example, and I think maybe we've talked about this a little bit. When we first met, um, it was on a movie, we were in Salzburg. Isn't that right? I mean, that we actually that you worked. Yeah. Yes. That you shot. I think I maybe I had met you before that, but we had shot or we were shooting. It was freezing. We were running and gunning it in the middle of Christmas markets because they just couldn't section anything off for us. There was no place for actors to be. There was no place for anybody to be, but the people who needed to be on camera, you one of them, there was nowhere for you to be. There was there was no safe space for you to be, right place to warm up. It was, and it was a lot. And I didn't know you yet. So as an executive producer, I'm just observing. And you were you were laying down some boundaries for what you needed. And it was being relayed to me as oh, he's really frustrated or this is happening, and this actor's really frustrated. So I'm getting all of this in my ear. And I came up and I shook your hand and I was like, Brandon, what do you need? Like, what do we what do we need to do? And in that moment, I was in executive producer mode. So I was in the mode where I wasn't really thinking about Christopher, I'm thinking about my actor, I'm thinking about what I need to do. But there was a part of me that was like, Well, wait a minute, we're kind of all in this situation together. What are we gonna do? Like, how are we gonna make this happen? And I remember stepping back for a minute and watching and thinking, I was, I'm just gonna be really honest with you. The executive producer part of me was like, Oh shit, what am I in for? Like, how is this actually gonna go? I don't know, like, we're in for a lot here. And the other part of me thought, I really love the fact that he just stood in here, stood up here, and he said, This is what I need. So then I just started kind of really paying attention to you. I always pay attention to my actors, but paying attention to you and realizing that a lot of things that were triggering you were also triggering me. I was just shoving them down. Right? I wasn't speaking up. Yeah. And and I for whatever reason, that's just my MO, particularly when I'm producing. I think, well, whatever Christopher needs right now is not that important. It's what everybody outside of me needs. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And I just, it's an interesting correlation to transfer over to my life as well. Because then when I really started paying attention and we started to get to know each other, I was like, actually, he's thinking a lot of the same things I was thinking. We're very similar here. He just had the bravery or the ability to speak up, or maybe over experience you've learned.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, through through experience, I have not gone up to you and been like, hey, what the hell? Why aren't these people taking care of us? Don't they know, like, don't they respect the work that we do? Like, they've they've paid us to get here, they have us here for the day, they they they they set everything up. We're the most important part. We the ball's teed up for us to hit it. And if we're cold and we haven't had I'm I'm explaining these are past experience, yeah. In as an actor, am I cold? If I haven't eaten, if they if somebody has been knocking at my door and they didn't have the wardrobe that I'm supposed to have, and the hair and makeup team is doesn't have enough people and they're freaked out. They don't have trailers, no water in the trailers, no water in my trailer. I can't flush, I don't know where I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I don't know if they paid attention to my uh gluten allergy. Um, there's no place to sit, maybe. Um, one of the other actors had a bad experience with something that was irrational. Uh, all kinds of things um could have happened before we get to do the one thing that we're there to do, which is act to deliver with very little margin of error. That's what I'm protecting. Yeah, but I didn't know, I didn't even have the worth and understanding of how to own that to and then to respect it uh respectfully request and lay that boundary to all of the various producers instead of being upset and feeling attacked, and why me? And don't they respect me? And how do they what they don't think that I'm good enough for whatever this thing is? No, I I've lived in that world and that doesn't help. And so I come at it back from the team perspective how can we make this better? How can we make this better for everybody else? And um, maybe they don't know, or maybe there's just too much going else going on. You know, we're here, I'm in it, let's make it the best it can be. So I'm doing that inner dialogue throughout the years, and and as I've gotten older, and the more you do it, like like that, it's a program that runs faster and easier and with less entropy, I think.
SPEAKER_01:I I don't I don't want to gloss over the fact that that takes self-awareness and choice and effort to evolve.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, been the conscious effort by myself, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it does. And I think that I talk with my kids about this a lot. They're almost 14 and 15 and a half, and I know you yours is 13. 13. So right in there. And and they're now they're in the place where particularly the almost 14-year-old, uh where she's really learning what it means to be uh not just self-aware, but aware of how her energy uh affects everyone around her. Because children, I'm sure, I mean, you have your own experience of it. My experience of it, and in as much reading as I could do, uh but my real life experience is that children are meant to be entirely egocentric. Like that's just as they're coming up and they're coming into themselves, and then they start individuating in the teen yeah, pulling themselves away. Like some days that they'd rather me walk on the other side of the street because they're figuring out who they are. I love creating a safe space for them and for me to learn who they are. I always tell them, I'm like, look, we're gonna we're gonna have rules, we have some things that we need to follow. But outside of that, I'm not here to micromanage your life. I'm here to learn who you are. If I can give my kids the ability to be self-aware so that when they go out into the world, they understand that it's not all about them, but it is all about them as far as how they interact with the rest of the world and what they create in their life, then I will have done as much as I could do as a father so that they can go out into the world and understand. Listen, if I'm gonna bring X, Y, and Z into the world, then I'm gonna, I'm gonna be trying to do that to make it a better place. So when you were on set, for instance, you the I've worked with plenty of actors who haven't done that work and they're really just pounding their fists about something they feel out of control of. You were self-aware enough to speak up for who you were. And I'm making this sound bigger than it was. It wasn't a big deal. It just was a perfect example of watching somebody like you who's done the work and then doesn't hold on to it, who simply says, This is who I am, this is what I need, I'm moving on. Let's get it. And I think that that was admirable for me.
SPEAKER_02:We don't have to carry that as a story, like it, like we're using it now as like fuel to to talk about discussion. But when I wasn't able to to to have a producer who was uh you know empathetic and gracious enough to hear and want to know and actually resolve whatever small issue it was, um, then you have conflict and you have then the story continues, right? And then we have more confrontation, more confrontation. And I mean, it's it's the continual thing in life. Uh, I help you, you help me, I help you, you help me. But first you have to allow for a connection. Um and and then when we don't allow for connections, I think that's you know, that's the stuff we hold on to. It's it's however it works. I don't know, can't explain the metaphysical, physical, biological aspect of it. But when I get when I feel a pain of disappointment, uh either from somebody directly or a thought myself, I feel it physically in my body. I don't know why that happens, but that's uh there's a some kind of energetic connection that's that's a different kind of signal. It feels like a blocked signal or a lesser than signal, so it draws my attention. And then I then I I know I'm tangenting, but then I then I then I name it and I give it a a name for for excuse for why I'm having this pain. Or maybe it is just physical, it's not my mind. Maybe it's not um the worried feeling I was having, but that this conversation is too too woo-woo for people. And I and I and I maybe I'm maybe I'm uh you know thinking wild thoughts, but um that's my that's just a judgment and my inner critic kind of coming down to like keep me, keep me in my place and not and and because I am a little bit afraid of what people think of my big ideas, uh, or not even my big ideas, but big ideas that have come from all throughout civilization as I learn and absorb other people's experiences. You know, my my view of things expands bigger and bigger, but also it sets me apart from other people who who who live more of a finite experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm with you. It's why it's why I was telling you sometimes I why I took this podcast slow, because there were some episodes I would record and I would think nobody's gonna follow my brain. And then I just put one out where it was all over the place. I think I put a disclaimer at the front of it. I'm like, hey, listen, this is how my brain works.
SPEAKER_02:So hopefully you can be along for the but I but I like those too because then it gives me an opportunity, because you're so like black and white about often about how you feel. You're very open, but you're but you're but you but you see, but you your point is well said and intentional. And then you you allow yourself to tangent and learn even in the middle of a conversation with yourself, you're going, oh, but maybe I what I said before I take back because now I see. So you're giving yourself grace and you're moving forward. And that's and that that's like the process of evolution, I think. Um, and inner evolution, uh consciousness evolution, um, is is being open to things changing. But anyway, what I was saying is you giving in in listening to those, then it gives me an opportunity, it gives me a boundary to think about oh, how do I feel about that? I know how he feels. That's one like strong vision coming through. Because you said it, I get to think about it. I get to have an opinion about it. But if nobody ever brings it up, you don't get that you might not ever get to think about that. So there's gift and energy in you presenting your your ideas.
SPEAKER_01:I appreciate you saying that because it feels it feels vulnerable. Yeah. It feels vulnerable to do that. And that's kind of what maybe unmasking is the thing that that we're you know that I'm really most interested in. And when we when we talk about it, because you have to mask at work, you have to mask in life, you have to mask in, and and one of the things that I know for sure about myself now that used to be really confusing to me is I thought because I was masking and people pleasing that I was without an opinion. I do have an opinion on most things, but I learned to keep that opinion to myself.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, me too, I think.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, like, yeah. And ask questions. And but here's the kicker. And I I don't I don't know how you feel about this, but there are some things that I'm very clear about, particularly where it comes to humanity and compassion and respect. Those are not wavering for me. You if if if we are taking away another person, another group of persons' right to exist peacefully, in the way that that whatever created them created them. To me, that's a line. I don't, but there's so much complexity within that, within understanding other people, that I am completely fine to have held an opinion for 50 years and change it tomorrow if you have the right conversation with me. In fact, I love that. I love having a flip where I go, wait a minute, I thought that I absolutely knew that. Or I had that perspective. It's really about perspective for me, which is why I love to talk to people. We may be thinking essentially the same thing, but there's no way that I can not come away a better person if I understand more about how you see the world.
SPEAKER_02:That that is that is part of the purpose of many people have said it before me, but the the idea of being here is we are God, uh, the consciousness uh God ex uh God experiencing it themselves. Neil Don and Walsh, one of the first things, like eye-opening books, like conversations with God. Like, I think that's what he this comes from him. Um and maybe he got it from somebody else, but it's like you know, we're all passing down this knowledge and re- say rein restating it in our own way. But it's like we are God like experiencing itself because if there was nothing, you can't have nothing. Uh you can't have nothing. It's impossible to have nothing because once you have something, you have once you have anything, you have everything. Uh, and then if if it's just like energy or space that is uh just energetic and non-physical and they can make choices, then um it's like, well, that's boring. So then it explodes and we evolve to this so that we can experience what it's like to be all powerful in our own way through our connectivity. And part of that is connecting, you know, not each each person gets to do their own thing, but also in a finite in a system, we still have to interact. There are still rules, there are boundaries, because communication has to happen, and it's all these different systems that are the experience of uh learning from the other person, seeing your perspective and uh what it's like to be human in your way.
SPEAKER_01:And we as a world society, um, through religion and politics and other structures, uh we weaponize maybe that's the wrong word. We certainly divide people.
SPEAKER_02:It's identity, it's it's all based on identity, I think. It's all it's all this is my identity, my country, my state, my sports team, my religion, yeah, my sexual identity, yeah. My political party, identity, identity, identity, ego, ego, ego. To change any of those things is like, oh, that shifts who I am. And I don't, if I, if I'm not, don't have inner awareness and and self-soothing, uh, then the judgment is too harsh and we push back, and then everybody else is the problem.
SPEAKER_01:And that's that is where the weaponized word came from, I think, because it it does feel to me like we are pulling away the opportunity for people to talk with each other. Whereas social media and and things like this could be used for exactly the opposite purpose, but we're but fear, fear uh is money.
SPEAKER_02:We're countering it here in this podcast. Yeah, tell me in our own way. Well, we're we're we're sending like possible knowledge, possibility. We're talking possibility. Uh and I and that's and the other side, not the other side, the oppos the opposition of possibility is not possible. No, no, no, not possible. Create enemies, create divisions, create who I am. I'm this, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this one. Become become very rigid and flexible. If you if if any I mean it's just physics, something becomes more structured and harder, it can't move, it's not as flexible. So it's being hard and fast. It's it's it's uh physical, non-physical.
SPEAKER_01:It's like, yeah, yes, it it is all energy. We live in a world where structure is so important. Um, you know, we live in this this three-dimensional world where we need these boundaries, we need to know where our safe space is as humans, as animals, we want to be in our tribe, we want to understand that, you know, for for for since the dawn of humanity, people have been looking to the skies and and further and and and to our earth for something to tell us that we're heading in the right path or that somebody has our back. I don't have any need to answer any of those questions. I have no desire to have chosen right. I have a desire to just personally know that I've walked through life and I've made a better place for the people I come in contact with. But I don't need to know what happens after I die. I don't need to know exactly how all of science and energy works. I don't need I don't know that there is an answer to all of that. And I don't really care, but I want to talk about it forever.
SPEAKER_02:Ah. But you don't see, I I don't know if there's an answer, and I do want to know. But I also know that like that then then the more I go, the more the further my mind goes, the more I'm sometimes it scares it, not scares me, but it it's like, well, how can I, I can't, I can't justify these two, rationalize these two opposites. The the the harshness, the terrible truth at times about what life is, the depravity, the the despicable as uh aspects, and then the joy, wonder, and creation and beauty and naivety of life. Like it's so much. Like, how can we live in these two complete opposites? Um I've used the word bridge a lot recently in talking about Superman and how I feel like I was a bridge between Chris and what was to come next for Superman fans and the lore of Superman and kind of a gentle like move into other directions. And uh, but I feel like I am that in many ways in the way I think, because in my in my exploration and and about myself and how I work and how people and humanity work, I try to bridge the gap for myself of how can I feel so wonderful at times. And then just my mind is being mean to me. Yeah. Sometimes out of a joyful moment, um a thought comes in, something I didn't do. It's like bam, oh, like a like an electric shock. It feels like a shock too. I mean, it feels electric. Yeah, yeah. Um direct, direct emotional pain. A thought happened. I know it's a trigger, bam, I feel it somewhere in my body. And do you give yourself grace? There are many moments of consciously giving myself grace, or at least like recycling the energy, like like not getting stuck on the my inner critic, or whatever you want to call that voice that sometimes isn't nice to us, uh, and say, it's cool. Like let that, like that, like let that one go. Let that one go. There's no observe it. Observe it. Yeah, I hear you, I hear you, I hear you, I hear you. Yes, yes, and yes, and yes, and I may have forgotten something, but I'm still a wonderful person. I can still be love and still and make mistakes. I can still be both. Um, whatever the mantras, all kinds of mantras, all kinds of things. The pain, sometimes it's just the I feel the pain. I go, okay, that's a pain. Feel the pain. The pain is okay, the pain is part of me. The pain is just a signal, it's just there to like send a message. The pain isn't even the thing, it's what caused the pain.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah. I I think about this a lot, and this is where I go back to the beginning of the conversation. And I say that I'm I have to learn to provide space to understand who Christopher is. You know, it's we all have our triggers. We have these things that happen. And I think what happens for the most part is people stop at the moment they have a trigger. They sit, I can speak for myself. Many years of sitting in that trigger and not observing it. And in order to observe it, I have to go to that higher place where I'm not totally identified with it. Yeah. And it can still be the pain doesn't go away. But in the observing of it, it starts to lessen because I'm aware it's not totally my identity because who's observing?
SPEAKER_02:It's like it's not instead of thinking pain, pain, pain, I'm ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, you're saying, oh, I see I'm in pain. I see I'm in it's a it's it is a step back. It's not just being absorbed in the thing, but it's being removed in order to to see it and and to calm it down.
SPEAKER_01:And isn't that I think that's got to be the point of life. If you can tell me one thing, this isn't a challenge, but like what else is there that we're actually doing other than getting to know those things about ourselves and others? What else is there?
SPEAKER_02:Evolving. It's growing. It's sending a message and having it received in some way. That is a gift, an exchange of information.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. I I used to um train volunteers at Cedar Sinai in one of my 15 different lives that I led. And one of the things that I just found myself naturally gravitating toward, I said we're we're all we're doing every day is waking up and exchanging information. We're telling stories, we're telling the story of ourselves, we're telling the story of our families, we're adapting the story of ourself depending on what we want. There is acquiring money, acquiring recognition, acquiring things, sure, those are all creature comforts. But at the base, at the base of what we're doing every day is we wake up and we start telling stories and exchanging information. And what's important to me is to be listening more.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Yeah, because that's a gift too. Uh because that's part of that's the that's the talking, that's the send and receive. You have to be able to, if if it doesn't feel like somebody's listening to you, then you're creating a story about in your head as you're talking, like, why aren't they listening to me? Like this is the same, you know, this is what they always do. They don't listen to me. Um, so it's like we have to also be able to be uh receptive um in for in order for the exchange to to to happen, so that we can learn from each other, so that we can share and spread uh love and light.
SPEAKER_01:But everything is energy, and I'm eternally fascinated by it. I'm so fascinated by, and I'm really particularly fascinated by the idea that most of us move through life. I really do think, again, another broad generalization. What do I know? I haven't taken a poll, but many people move through life not even stopping to look at that piece at energy.
SPEAKER_02:I agree. And that's the opportunity, I guess, that I find that's what's exciting about this. Because through this exchange, if if knowledge is and sending a message and learning and growing and evolving is part of the thing, then we are having this conversation. Whoever listens to this is gonna have interpreted in their own way through their own story of who they are and and how they've lived life. And they're gonna hopefully uh uh take some new things and and and open their mind up to our maybe some of our ideas, which will then grow them a little bit. Um, and then they go off and they do that to their friends and family at some point. And then sometimes it even comes back to us, like we then we get to hear about people come up and say, hey, what you said about this really, really uh clicked for me.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna ask you a question you've probably been asked before, but I'm curious if you could look back to your younger self, and let's just say, not not like young, young self, but like you know, late teens, early twenties, and impart something that you know now to him. Does anything come to mind that you wish that he had known or would have helped him along his way?
SPEAKER_02:Ah okay, strongest thing coming through is to be kind to to me. I am at my best when I remember that I'm the only one that's gonna be with me all the rest of my time. Like, I'm with me, I'm hanging out with me. So I work to be kind to myself. It's always Brandon. So do I want to be good to Brandon or do I want to be not nice to Brandon? My dear friend Gudney Gunerson, he talks a lot and reminds me a lot of discipline. Um, being being a being disciple, a disciple of myself, being good to myself, being being true to myself, and having both outer discipline and and inner discipline is really important because it's like a little there, you can even think about it that discipline is like little systems, little management systems running. Um, whether it's you you have a program that you run when you get up in the morning where you have your water there and your your whatever pill you might need to take in the morning, you have it ready to go. And then you set out your clothes beforehand so that you're not struggling in the morning to go through all of your closet. You maybe you make your coffee in the at nighttime and heat it up in the morning. Whatever these things, these are little disciplines, things that I've done at sometimes good and sometimes not as good in my life. Um, I'm working to create more discipline again, um, in how I wake up in the morning knowing that that's become more of a focus for me because I see how much I kind of forget from day to day. Um, and there are different practices that you can do from like, you know, going to sleep and thinking about your day backwards, redoing your day, or thinking about something at night, uh, you know, reviewing your day and thinking about something that didn't go the way you wanted it to do, and look at it kind of from an objective point of view and analyze without making anybody wrong, like how you could have maybe done something differently, take responsibility and then unpack that. And then look, then you're not gonna carry that with you as heavily into your sleep. And maybe you have learned another way and seen another dimension about how when this thing comes up in the future, you'll be able to handle it differently. And because you've pulled it out and looked at it, you've actually created a memory. Um, and you've made a concrete, like it wasn't just something that happened in your day and then it's gone. Like you're creating context for it. Um, and then anyway, then you can sleep better and wake up. And and uh I think that's why I'm working to start doing some form of meditation in the morning um as a regular practice, because then I'm realizing just in this conversation with you, a thought that I had the other day is becoming more concrete, which is that that helps connect from yesterday to today because I'm checking in with more consciousness. Because when I when I meditate, it makes me slow down and close my eyes and get in touch with my inner awareness and what feels like you know the connection to stronger consciousness or creativity, imagination, possibility. And if I don't do that, then I just wake up going the physical, physical world, physical, physical, physical, physical, physical world, problems are harsh. Like there's not there's less dimensionality to my experience. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:To practice, nobody else can see this, but you see that little thing behind me there. I mean, we are we're in my meditation room, that's where I record my podcast. Um, I started meditating when I was in my early 30s with a Taoist uh master from Thailand because I was at my wit's end. I had I didn't I didn't know what to do next. And meditation can be intentional sitting, it can be being with in nature, it can be being with your children, whatever it is that returns you to a center of self and a presence. I yeah, I believe wholeheartedly that those within the higher power structures uh seek as much as possible to keep us from sitting still with ourselves and knowing who we are, because then we are much less controllable when we do that, right? They want us to stay, they want us to wake up every day and think, I need to survive. I gotta deal with everything that's coming at me, which is why the news and the 24-hour news cycle come at us constantly.
SPEAKER_02:And maybe there is uh and subtangent, maybe there is somebody who's or some group that is like purposely like monetizing this. But I think I think I think that people are lazy uh mostly and or power hungry, but they just want the money. So I I I think I think it's just all we have to do is just wake up to it.
SPEAKER_01:Agreed, you know. It's pretty simple, actually. We make it sound like it's really hard, but the the the thing that is challenging is and your body is a beautiful system of wiring. The body and the mind are so powerful that you can forget you're part of something greater. It doesn't matter what you think that greater is. Oh, yes. Which is, you know, one of the reasons that I love telling stories and move to the producing side because I love actors, I love creatives, I love anybody who has found the ability to walk that tightrope of I'm going to give you my most authentic self because the camera sees past anything that's not real. So you have to show up as an authentic version of yourself. Maybe it's just a piece of you, but you have to find the ability to do that. So you have to be really individual, but at the same time, you have to function as part of this massive system and have a whole series of expectations about what once you put yourself out there, once you were Superman and you basically had overnight fame, the whole world has an idea of who you who you are, what role you're going to fulfill. I mean, I and that's a podcast for a whole other time, and I know you've talked about that a lot, but it's just a it's a really high-level example of the practice it takes, particularly in your world, to remain Brandon, to get closer to knowing who you are and yet present something that is safe and comfortable for you to present to the outside world, which is just a macrocosm of what we're doing every day. At home, I'm Christopher. When I go through my interactions, what am I going to give to that? And if I just keep kind of responding to the outside world when I get home, do I know who I am? Like I have to practice to know that. I have to sit when I wake up in the morning. I have to sit before I do this podcast so that I can make sure I'm giving Christopher, not just a bunch of sound bites of things that I've um or responding to things that are happening in my world.
SPEAKER_02:It's like, yeah, it's like there's overload, and and you have to like closing eyes and and taking time, and it's like you gotta close off some of that stimulus in order to let your brain work and have more power and less. Like I become less judgmental of myself when I close my eyes.
SPEAKER_01:Do you like yourself? That's a loaded question. Like in general, do you do you know just in general? Like, are you happy with Brandon?
SPEAKER_02:I I I I'm I'm happy with Brandon almost almost all the time. Um, I I I'm very good at not liking Brandon sometimes. Um I've been pretty hard on myself. Um and like it doesn't that the what I've found through that, um, if I make it a positive, what I've found through all of that time and experience is that it generally doesn't move me forward um in the direction I or as quickly. Um but if I can look at it and own it and honor it, then the rebound effect, like the power I can get generate from like unpacking it and letting it go and not having that be how I hold or think of myself inside, even through this conversation, it lessens it a little bit. I'm like, oh, here's another gem, like here's a diamond that I can pull out and be like, oh, I why do I have to like, why do I have to think that bad thing? Like, why are you holding on that story? Like, what good is that doing? I didn't even know I was holding on to that story. But I can literally feel myself have a more positive energy and and feeling of myself in the moment when I am unpacking and talking about these things uh with you. It's giving validity to this dimension of thought that I have these things that I think that are like maybe too far out there and that feel happy. I have a challenge to like allow to vibrate at a higher frequency because it feels too good. Like, how do I get to have all of this joy sometimes? Oh, I feel that. And then my my my body wants to be like, oh, you gotta like the rest of the world is is is suffering. And so then I go, I swing back and forth between the two poles of like, do I get to experience all of this love and joy that comes at me at conventions and from people? Like, is that real? Does that do I get to own this when people are destroying and killing each other? That's that's like the whole Buddhist thing. It's it's the life is suffering, but but but it's part of it. Black and white exist, we have to have both. But it doesn't mean we doesn't mean we have to live in pain or allow people to be in pain in order for it to happen. I believe we're like like honestly trying to like become uh more and more and more and more loving until we're so loving that maybe the whole, you know, that that's that that's it. And then we're all we're are we all one again? I don't know. But but I'd rather that's the world uh that's the world I go to is like I don't need to allow for terrible things to exist, except that they do, and they help us learn and grow to not do that. We're continually evolving to learn how can we be better people, how loving can we be to each other, how much love and joy can we allow for ourselves and in the world. And that's up to each individual person. The more the each the more each person can uh generate and reflect and accept more light, you know, more light um reflected, creates more light, creates more light, creates more light, creates more light. And that's that's my goal. Yeah, but I can hold that just as like the ideal. Like maybe we won't get there, but that is where I'm at the end of the day, that's like the pinnacle point that I'm like going to. Like, why not allow for more love and potentiate it because um that's what feels good.
SPEAKER_01:I agree with every single thing that you said, and and the thing that I want to pull out of it is the Buddhist piece about happiness and sadness existing at the same time and suffering and joy existing at the same time, not just within us, but without us as well. And other suffering. Other suffering. And I think we've actually talked about this on a podcast too. I think we've actually worked ourselves in a place too where we penalize people for not acknowledging other people's suffering as much as we would like them to acknowledge it. And I have a pretty strong opinion about that. Always open to, always open to expanding that opinion. But my experience is that if we spend, and I think you alluded to this, but don't let me put words in your mouth, if we spend too much time focused on suffering, whether it's ours or others, that light that we need to be shining dims. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I think this is a good example. There's a parable or story of Buddhist about these two Buddhist monks who are walking along the river, and um they um they come across a woman who asks, can they help her get across the river? Well, they're not supposed to be in contact or physically touch women, I guess, whenever the story was made. Um uh and and so one monk says, No, I'm uh I can't miss, and he crosses the river. And the other guy's like, Okay, I'll help you, and carries her across the river. And they say goodbye to the woman, and as you know, a few minutes later, the guy who didn't carry uh the woman across says, I can't believe, I can't believe you carried her across the river. And the other monk who did said, Well, listen, who's the one carrying the woman now? His judgment that he did that, like he's holding on to the story.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's beautiful. I want to say thank you because even in this conversation, what I find is that you spark me with so many different thoughts and ideas. And hopefully there are people out there who take them away. But I personally have expanded my own way of thinking in the few conversations that we've had, this one is no different. Um, it it helps me see that, you know, even and I don't say this to be cliche or flippant at all, but even somebody who has the ability to embody a hero like Superman and to live the life that you lived, because nobody's gonna cast you in that role if you're not walking the embodiment of something there. I mean, we you you know, I'm not gonna give you space to self-critique after saying that, but it's it's a truism. And we know in our industry that what we're looking for is we're looking for people who come in and embody something.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So whatever you've gone through in your life, whatever kind of you know, exploration you've gone through, it's I I remember when you were cast as Superman, and I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I can never be that guy. I can't be that guy. I just have to figure out how to be Christopher. And I've spent my life trying to figure out how to be Christopher. And sitting here talking to you today and feeling that I relate to you, that means that there are more people out there who think that they're so different or they're so off base or going to listen to you, or and and they're gonna realize how much more alike we actually are.
SPEAKER_02:That's amazing. Thank you for for saying that. I I really uh uh appreciate it. I'm so happy to help open open things up. I think that because I I have shied away from conversations, or not shied away, or just didn't know how to like engage in conversations of this nature, and sometimes would shy away from it for fear for fear uh of being too much, uh, in some ways. Um I am grateful for this opportunity. And and as I have done on a couple of the podcasts when I've talked about challenging times in my life, and people come up to me and they they say, Oh, that was, you know, really loved hearing that. It was cool to hear that you have challenged that you've come through them or that how you think and talk about things. And I was like, I don't know. Uh that's cool. Um what I've come to and and kind of what you're reflecting back a little bit is it's interest, it may be interesting or appealing to for people to see to hear how I to hear how I think about things.
SPEAKER_01:It is a gift for anybody who who takes a moment to to be in conversation with you, whether it's here or in real life. And I personally am super grateful to know you. I also, it's a little, it's a little ding of a bell for me from the universe that there would be this moment because I have tracked you, I have watched you. We're similar in age, and yeah, and I don't know. It just I like the synchronicities that sometimes happen and remind us that we are all indeed more connected and not so far away. And I'm just grateful for you giving your time today, man. I just could talk to you all day.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Christopher. I uh same. And listen, I think as you were giving me the compliment, um, I think that one of the exciting things about having convers in our conversations is that um you you you again, because you have your passionate, like authoritative voice of of of who of of your of your point of view at the time. It might be changing, but your point of view, that it gives me an opportunity, it really does give me an opportunity to be curious about. Oh, I get to talk about this and I get to go. I like, I like to I'm not very saying I like to problem solve, but I don't like to problem solve all problems. Like like real real real world problems. I I don't like problem solving. Writing emails and scheduling things doesn't work very well for me. I'm learning that skill. But to think about these subject matters and unpack them and think about all the other possibilities that I can at the moment, that is exhilarating to me and helps me uh you know expand further expand. My thought process, my belief in what I'm talking about in the transfers of energy and what we're doing and having a conversation, even if we weren't sending this out to the to other people, you know, just us having it is incredibly worthwhile. Yeah. But but but also the idea of other people hearing it and doing some good, like that does potentiate even more like excitement about what this conversation is, because we have an intention of what's going to be done with it, not just a conversation between you and I, but that we can help people. And so then we are speaking about it. I'm speaking it in a way that I'm speaking to other people and hopefully hoping that it can help them. And maybe there is that is getting you know encapsulated in in this experien in the recording also. People say they bake things with love. Maybe if I say things with love, like it goes does more for the message.
SPEAKER_01:Of course it will. It's just it's just energy anyway. And you know, I one of the things that I say in my meditation every day is uh can you please use my body, my voice, my spirit to be of service. And this is a great service today, even even if it's just a couple people. It's it's it's a great service for for you to open up like this. And I not to put you on the spot, but to totally put you on the spot, if you could leave something with people today that reflects you, what would that be?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think it's uh I've been working on this you know um thought uh for a few months because it's a kind of a question that comes up to me in in in the role of Superman. Um what positive you know idea can I give out? And I think that it is the idea that we if we think about ourselves as a as a garden, when when when it seems like the world is overwhelming and there are so many problems that need to be fixed, um sometimes I have I I even I have uh thoughts of it's impossible, uh, or the why, you know, how can we fight against all of this badness? Um but what I come back to all the time is what I can do is I can do Brandon the best that I can do. And um that is uh me watering my garden, me taking care of the small things that I can, it's doing the self, the discipline, it's it's meditating, it's connecting, it's having conversations, it's closing my eyes and breathing deep when I'm um uh uh concerned or worried. It's knowing that I'm that I'm worthy enough even to think about myself as a garden, that I get to grow and take care of myself. It's even I'm just realizing now in talking about myself as a garden and other people to think about themselves as a garden, like you get to care for yourself. Like if you can think of yourself in the in an objective point of view, then it's you almost you can be kinder to yourself. You can sometimes we can be kinder to other people than we can be to ourselves. So if we think about watering our garden, then we can do more to help other people eventually. The world will be a better place if you close your eyes and give yourself a moment. Um, even if whatever, in any way, listen to some music. I I in that car is one of my favorite places to meditate. Uh, not best to do when you're driving, but like I often get I'll get home and I'll just you know turn uh keep the music on and and sit there for you know five, ten minutes and think whatever I'm thinking, and then you know, set a timer sometimes so when I get worried that I'm wasting my day away and then go back in. But it's that connection to self is is is that's even that's a little bit of moment of worthiness for you that helps you can help you step out of the yeah just the pattern of of life, life, life, life, life. Um and start to get and be in more control of of your own health and garden.
SPEAKER_01:I couldn't agree with you more. And you know what? Sometimes people just need to hear from someone else that little piece of encouragement that it's okay to do that. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for being here today. I look forward to lots more conversations just in general. Um I really appreciate it. I hope you'll come back sometime.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Christopher. I'll be back uh anytime, and I'm grateful that you have the that you've created the space um for for me and and for everyone else. I I like I like like I you know, really, the it's uh it's a great, it's a great achievement, even if it made it feel like and it's growing all the time. So it's cool. It's cool.
SPEAKER_01:I appreciate you. Okay, everybody. We'll be back very soon. Thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_00:Unsided.